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cogadh: Just so we are clear, I was actually joking about the "random word" DRM (this forum needs smilies).
As for the unreasonableness of demanding all games be DRM free, the fact is, piracy does exist and publishers do have the right and responsibility to protect their product from it. We may not like it, and you can spin it however you like, but our personal opinions of it don't really invalidate that right and responsibility. Given that, the fact that current strategies don't work is really a moot point, the publishers still need to make that effort. When (if) TPM becomes a common thing on all PCs, then this whole debate will be moot, unless you believe that the unique hardware encryption in every TPM chip can be somehow cracked. However, until that actually happens, it is unreasonable to expect every publisher out there to just "give up" on DRM just because we think it is a losing battle.

Fighting DRM is a losing battle for publishers. All they are doing is putting money in the hands of StarForce, Securom, Tages, or whomever is making the DRM the publisher plans to use for NO reason. Most PC games upon release have already been cracked and/or the full version has been leaked out without DRM included. So, why are publishers throwing money away to these companies?

Also, legit users that wind up having issues with their game b/c of shoddy copy protection alone, you can potentially turn run them into pirates or making them purchase the console version of the game instead. Why should Joe Gamer go out and buy Mass Effect PC with its install limits with no revokes and pain in the neck Securom drivers that black list certain programs so the game won't boot at all -- when he can go get a cracked version of the PC game or buy the X360 version that will likely not give him any trouble at all. Well, as long as his 360 doesn't go Red Ring on him, then the X460 version should be fine... ;)
Valve gets away with a lot b/c they are Valve -- makers of one of the best FPS series ever made, in many people's opinions (Half-Life series). B/c people fear the "ban stick" from Valve, they run the chance of possibly losing their access to whatever Steam games Valve bans decides to ban them from, if they act up.
Also, there's this whole ordeal where people want their games ASAP -- and since you have to unlock your game via Steam online and authenticate the day it comes out to actually get it going, they've basically killed Zero Day Piracy. If Valve wants, they can hold back any files needed to boot the game up until the official release date -- this way, nobody can start any copy of the game before the official time. If it's going to be cracked by crackers and hackers, it's going to be after the game's out already -- and many games don't want to wait THAT long for a game.
Since Valve doesn't allow you to say download patches separately -- you're stuck with getting them directly from Valve themselves. So again, you're stuck with Steam to get the patch, here -- like it or not. So, therefore, you'd want to be on some good behavior, or you could fear "ban sticks" coming. With Steam, a pirate can't just say pirate a game, download the newest patch from any mirror online, and suddenly have the newest version of the game. In most likelihood, retail games just don't wind up as patched-up as some Valve games.
With the way Steam works, when an update comes, who knows what game-files got changed, fixed, altered, added, and whatnot to the game. It's not shown to you and you can't see what file's installing as you go,, unlike some other games where when you can get a small update and as it installs, watch some of the files names be displayed as what path they're installing into -- unlike some games that allow for updates. That will force the gamer to...back-up an entire copy of the game, since they can't just back-up a small patch here; a small patch is normally wicked small in comparison to the size of the entire game. Also, some games on Steam get updated ALL THE TIME -- which would make it a pain in the neck for the pirate to keep up and constantly cracking the game to its newest version over and over and over and over...If you had Steam and let the game update whenever you want, it'd just do it for you and update itself. Hasn't TF2 been updated over 60 times already?
But why is half life regarded as one of the "greatest" games made? It's just doom done pretty. : D
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drmlessgames: But why is half life regarded as one of the "greatest" games made? It's just doom done pretty. : D

And done with better character development (than Doom).
The original HL had great timing. It came out at a time when FPS's really didn't have stellar stories and character development. I like the HL gameplay, though -- as they really do a great job with setting up the levels and set pieces.
Though, the HL story still has too many threads in the story hanging if you ask me, though...
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drmlessgames: But why is half life regarded as one of the "greatest" games made? It's just doom done pretty. : D
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MysterD: And done with better character development (than Doom).
The original HL had great timing. It came out at a time when FPS's really didn't have stellar stories and character development. I like the HL gameplay, though -- as they really do a great job with setting up the levels and set pieces.
Though, the HL story still has too many threads in the story hanging if you ask me, though...

They seem to slowly tie the threads together, but with every installment, there seems to be another confusing twist. Hopefully, they'll start to get things to make more sense before it becomes LOST... I can't stand that damn show.
If it was given away for free, couldn't hackers theoretically reverse-engineer Steamworks to crack the DRM?
Hackers can do that anyway and will. But in order to get Steam Works, you need to contact the relevant Valve employee and apply for it IIRC. Much the same way you'd apply for a developer kit, but without the price tag.
But hackers don't need to even apply for it. They can simply reverse engineering any game they buy with it included. And it's already a given that that will be exactly what they do.
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bansama: That is still not Valve or Steam's fault.
Of course it's Valve's fault. They're the ones who not only coded it, but actively use it as a selling point. Sheesh Valve fan boys just refuse to see the truth as always, so I won't waste my time trying to explain it.

Apparently people who dislike Valve also refuse to see the point (like I said before, misguided principle), but I will waste my time to explain it.
Valve simply provides a service to publishers through Steam that includes what they want, not necessarily what Valve wants. If a publisher wants to sell a game that is region restricted, then Valve provides the means to do that, but it is always still the publisher's decision, not Valve's, to apply that region restriction. Essentially, what Valve is providing them with is the same thing they already get with the physical media that they decided not to sell in your region, so I really fail to see how you can blame Valve for something that was not their decision in the first place. Chances are, if Valve didn't give them that option, the game wouldn't even be available through Steam and since Valve is in the business of selling games, well, can you really fault a company for making a sound business decision? If you have a problem with any Steam game being unavailable in your region, take your complaint to the people who not only decided to do that, but can actually do something about it: the publisher.
BTW - I am far from a Valve "fan boy", I just don't think Steam is all that bad, compared to some of the alternatives and I believe some of the hate directed at Valve is completely unwarranted, like in this particular situation.
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drmlessgames: But why is half life regarded as one of the "greatest" games made? It's just doom done pretty. : D
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MysterD: And done with better character development (than Doom).

Also it has a crowbar
Chances are, if Valve didn't give them that option, the game wouldn't even be available through Steam
Chances are that's complete tosh. Especially given that THQ are an established partner with Valve and have been for several years now. No, this move to add this particular regional restriction is something Valve instigated on their own accord -- originally as a way to restrict their own products in Russia. And now, their trying to pass on such anal methods to anyone who wants to lose profit.
More fool them.
bansama.
You sound like jack thompson. seriously. He says that Rockstar is to blamed because they created GTA. And because of said game some losers started to kill people at school.
I know that is a weird example but this is your logic.
Valve's system allows regional restriction. No surpise with that. It is probably a line or two of programming written under five minutes. But it is publisher's choice whether you can play their game in japan, how much it costs etc. Only publisher is to be blamed not Valve.
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lukaszthegreat: Valve's system allows regional restriction. No surpise with that. It is probably a line or two of programming written under five minutes. But it is publisher's choice whether you can play their game in japan, how much it costs etc. Only publisher is to be blamed not Valve.

In one sense it is almost certainly the publisher that decides on regional restrictions and pricing. However, one also has to recognize that as one of (if not the) largest digital distribution channels Steam also has a bit of pull where they can negotiate the terms of releases that use their system (similar to how Apple pressured music companies to accept certain terms with regards to DRM and pricing). That Steam doesn't seem to be doing this says to me that they did the calculations and figured they could make more money by going along with the regional restrictions and pricing rather than trying to change it. From a business perspective it's hard to fault them for this, although from a consumer perspective I can see how some folks might place some of the blame on Steam.
The most ridiculous aspect of this region-locking is that some of the titles marked as unavailable on Steam are readily available at retail in those regions. Steam does their best to disguise region-locking by hiding the titles in search results and making inbound links invalid, but it doesn't take too much investigation to spot the affected titles. A few short years ago the very suggestion of region-locking being done for PC games would have been laughed at.
You are overestimating Valve's importance. They are nothing like Apple when it comes to influence.
If steam was from EA then maybe you would have a point (but still. EA might be the biggest player but it is just a piranha in a ocean of sharks)
They cannot risk upsetting publisher by telling them what to do or not. It is not a good business and the reason they exist is not charity but business. You cannot blame them for that.
And it is not like valve supports it. They would love for every game to be available everywhere. More money for them, more customers, more publishers.
but it is Sega, Rockstar and other assholes who say what can or cannot be done with their games.
Valve gave them a choice. They refused. Simple like that
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cogadh: As for Valve not practicing what they preach, they really don't have a choice in the matter. They can dislike regional restrictions and speak out against them, but at the end of the day, they still have to do what is required of them by publishers and international law.

Hmm, again, there's this digital distributor called GOG, who does exactly that. If a publisher doesn't like it, then they don't sell that publisher's games. Simple.
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michaelleung: If it was given away for free, couldn't hackers theoretically reverse-engineer Steamworks to crack the DRM?

The could, and they will, and for that matter, they probably already have. This is not about piracy, it's about giving publishers a false sense of security for "free". I put "free" in quotes, because the price is that using the API in a game automatically makes it a Steam game. So Valve isn't really "giving" anything away for free.
Post edited March 25, 2009 by Wishbone
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cogadh: As for Valve not practicing what they preach, they really don't have a choice in the matter. They can dislike regional restrictions and speak out against them, but at the end of the day, they still have to do what is required of them by publishers and international law.
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Wishbone: Hmm, again, there's this digital distributor called GOG, who does exactly that. If a publisher doesn't like it, then they don't sell that publisher's games. Simple.

Apples and Oranges. GOG is going for a particular niche market, Steam is trying for broad appeal. The requirements for each a totally different. With Steam, Valve is trying to become the digital distribution store, and that means they need to make some concessions to the publishers that GOG really doesn't have to. Granted, GOG may be on the moral high ground here, but with the market they are going for, they can afford to be. Besides, you make it sound like when a publisher doesn't like GOG's model, GOG chooses to not sell their game, when the opposite is actually true. It's the publisher who decides not to sell the game on GOG and then goes over to Valve to sell their games on Steam.
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cogadh: Besides, you make it sound like when a publisher doesn't like GOG's model, GOG chooses to not sell their game, when the opposite is actually true. It's the publisher who decides not to sell the game on GOG and then goes over to Valve to sell their games on Steam.

Potato, potahto. Sure they go to Valve, since they have no moral qualms about all the wonderful stuff that publishers like, such as regional restrictions, online activations, and other intrusive measures. Basically you're saying that it's okay to stick it to the customer, if it's for the sake of making more money.