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cogadh: Compromise in that there has to be something that will make both the consumers and the publishers happy.
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Wishbone: A CD key is that compromise.

It was that compromise until they became pathetically easy to crack, which left the publishers with the short end of the stick as far as compromises go. I still think the best DRM scheme was the old "enter the fourth word from the bottom on page 26 of the manual" method, there's got to be a way to make that work again..
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Wishbone: A CD key is that compromise.
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cogadh: It was that compromise until they became pathetically easy to crack, which left the publishers with the short end of the stick as far as compromises go.

Face it, anything is pathetically easy to crack. Whatever copy protection scheme one team of developers cook up, 50 teams of pirates work on cracking just as fast. Any major game that is published is cracked and torrented that same day. DRM is pointless. It's to satisfy stockholders, plain and simple.
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cogadh: I still think the best DRM scheme was the old "enter the fourth word from the bottom on page 26 of the manual" method, there's got to be a way to make that work again..

Dear god, no! First of all, it's just as easy to crack as anything else. Secondly, it means yet another item you have to have handy when you want to play a game. I don't want to have 30 game manuals lying on my desk.
Post edited March 24, 2009 by Wishbone
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cogadh: I still think the best DRM scheme was the old "enter the fourth word from the bottom on page 26 of the manual" method, there's got to be a way to make that work again..

That would have as little an effect as a CD key, since all a pirate needs to do is scan the manual and then distribute it as a .pdf file or something similar.
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cogadh: I still think the best DRM scheme was the old "enter the fourth word from the bottom on page 26 of the manual" method, there's got to be a way to make that work again..
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Coelocanth: That would have as little an effect as a CD key, since all a pirate needs to do is scan the manual and then distribute it as a .pdf file or something similar.

Actually, all a pirate needs to do is make a crack that bypasses the check completely. Much easier, all around.
Good point.
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cogadh: I really think people are falling into the same rut that they fell into with Starforce, where all of the stories about how it broke drives and wrecked computers in the process of performing its copy protection duties actually turned out to be completely false.

Starforce would sometimes step down the read speed on CD drives, eventually kicking the drive into PIO mode. Some modern CD drives are not designed to be run in PIO mode, and over time this would cause actual physical damage to the drive. The occurrence was much lower than the outcry made it out to be, but calling it "completely false" is, well, completely false.
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cogadh: Consumers demanding that all games be DRM free is unreasonable.

Why? Seriously, I want an answer.
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cogadh: It was that compromise until they became pathetically easy to crack, which left the publishers with the short end of the stick as far as compromises go.

All DRM will be relatively easy to crack as long as the program is running client-side and there is no TPM involved. This is because it basically amounts to a cryptography system where the attacker and the intended recipient are the same person, and thus the attacker is given everything they need to crack the system. All companies can do is continue to add layers of obfuscation, but as the speed with which cracked versions of games are released should indicate this isn't a particularly successful strategy, to say the least.
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cogadh: I still think the best DRM scheme was the old "enter the fourth word from the bottom on page 26 of the manual" method, there's got to be a way to make that work again..

I am very tempted to track you down and beat you with a 2x4.
Any digital distributor scares me. Remember Triton? It died and people were pissed at a copy of Prey they couldn't play. I don't care how "liberal" they get when it comes to copy protection, the only way a digital distributor will be successful is when there is no DRM AT ALL. Like this small store called GOG. Perhaps you've heard of it.
I just feel I should point out that what you are describing is not the fault of Valve or Steam, but rather the individual game publisher, who decided to not sell their game in Japan.
Not really. You see, for most games, if a publisher decideds not to sell in a region, you can still import the retail copy and install it. No problem. Steamworks has had an element coded into it to specifically stop this. This is not something the third publisher coded, but something Valve coded themselves.
Now, Valve keep going around all these computing events spouting off about how regional restrictions are bad, while failing to tell everyone that they have created one of the *worst* forms of regional restrictions going.
As for this new "no need for DRM" spiel. It's far worse than that. They're now (going by the Steamworks documentation) generating unique keys embedded in your exes as a way of tracing who is who. This is the very form of DRM that people opposed in iTunes with a passion.
And what happens when the scene work out how to forge IDs so it no longer points to them but to an innocent party? That poor sod will wind up with a disabled account. This won't help prevent piracy at all. It's just going to cause eventual grief for some unlucky customers.
Just so we are clear, I was actually joking about the "random word" DRM (this forum needs smilies).
As for the unreasonableness of demanding all games be DRM free, the fact is, piracy does exist and publishers do have the right and responsibility to protect their product from it. We may not like it, and you can spin it however you like, but our personal opinions of it don't really invalidate that right and responsibility. Given that, the fact that current strategies don't work is really a moot point, the publishers still need to make that effort. When (if) TPM becomes a common thing on all PCs, then this whole debate will be moot, unless you believe that the unique hardware encryption in every TPM chip can be somehow cracked. However, until that actually happens, it is unreasonable to expect every publisher out there to just "give up" on DRM just because we think it is a losing battle.
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bansama: I just feel I should point out that what you are describing is not the fault of Valve or Steam, but rather the individual game publisher, who decided to not sell their game in Japan.
Not really. You see, for most games, if a publisher decideds not to sell in a region, you can still import the retail copy and install it. No problem. Steamworks has had an element coded into it to specifically stop this. This is not something the third publisher coded, but something Valve coded themselves.
Now, Valve keep going around all these computing events spouting off about how regional restrictions are bad, while failing to tell everyone that they have created one of the *worst* forms of regional restrictions going.

That is still not Valve or Steam's fault. If the publisher actually chose to sell their game in Japan, then the fact that Steam has region restrictions wouldn't matter. It was still the publisher's decision, and not Valve's, to not sell the game in your region.
As for Valve not practicing what they preach, they really don't have a choice in the matter. They can dislike regional restrictions and speak out against them, but at the end of the day, they still have to do what is required of them by publishers and international law.
Post edited March 24, 2009 by cogadh
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cogadh: unless you believe that the unique hardware encryption in every TPM chip can be somehow cracked.

Heh, I just had a chilling vision of the near future where we start having to get mod-chips for our computers... funny, yet sad.
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Miaghstir: Wait, they're "making DRM obsolete" by introducing yet another idea of digital restrictions management?

If what Valve meant is that they are making old-school DRM obsolete, then yes -- they are correct.
Of course, that's what Valve should've said, in the first place. Valve's Steam is DRM, but in a different form -- through the Internet and your unique online Steam account.
Valve's Internet-based DRM is basically killing the old-school disc-style DRM -- where you needed the disc in the drive, some silly DRM drivers installed with your game, secret rootkeys, annoying black-list checks of what software you have installed, pointless imposed install limits on your game, etc etc.
Valve aren't making DRM obsolete. If anything, GOG is taking a stance to try and make DRM obsolete.
Post edited March 24, 2009 by MysterD
That is still not Valve or Steam's fault.
Of course it's Valve's fault. They're the ones who not only coded it, but actively use it as a selling point. Sheesh Valve fan boys just refuse to see the truth as always, so I won't waste my time trying to explain it.
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cogadh: As for the unreasonableness of demanding all games be DRM free, the fact is, piracy does exist and publishers do have the right and responsibility to protect their product from it.

With regards to their "right" I'd argue that the right they have is to go after people infringing copyright through the courts, but that they have absolutely no right to control how I use a product I bought unless a contract was presented, negotiated, and signed at the time and place of the purchase. However, arguments along the lines of what "rights" a publisher has versus what rights the public has can go round and round, and accomplish little in the end.
What I consider of greater significance is what responsibility a publisher has. They have responsibilities laid out in whatever contract they signed with the developer, but as we often hear stories about developers wrestling with publishers on the matter of DRM (with developers typically in favor of less DRM) I doubt that "fighting piracy" is included in those contracts. If the publisher is a privately owned company then their responsibility pretty much ends there and everything else they do is just decisions that they choose to make. More interestingly, though, if they are a publicly owned company then they have a responsibility to shareholders to increase shareholder value as much as possible over the life of the company; I'm guessing this is the responsibility you were getting at. What's important to realize here, though, is that fighting piracy only comes into the picture if doing so actually increases shareholder value, or to simplify things, turns a greater profit for the company. However, given the costs of DRM in terms of upfront capital, time and effort to implement and support it (and its associated problems), as well as any customer ill-will that results (which turns into fewer sales), and most importantly the fact that DRM seems to do very little to actually decrease piracy, it could very easily be argued that the inclusion of DRM to fight piracy actually does nothing to increase shareholder value, and in fact may actually end up decreasing it.
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cogadh: Given that, the fact that current strategies don't work is really a moot point, the publishers still need to make that effort.

That DRM currently is pretty much useless is an absolutely key point! If there is no ROI on the inclusion of DRM then there is no reason that anyone should be making the decision to include it, and moreover those that are making that decision could even be said to be downright negligent in their duty to maximize the profits of their company.
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cogadh: When (if) TPM becomes a common thing on all PCs, then this whole debate will be moot, unless you believe that the unique hardware encryption in every TPM chip can be somehow cracked.

The whole discussion may indeed end up being moot if that comes to pass, but since there's little incentive for hardware makers to intentionally cripple their products or for customers to buy crippled products I wouldn't count on TPMs becoming common anytime in the near future (if ever).
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cogadh: However, until that actually happens, it is unreasonable to expect every publisher out there to just "give up" on DRM just because we think it is a losing battle.

On the contrary, given that DRM continues to prove ineffective at preventing piracy and really only costs companies money while inconveniencing legitimate customers I say it's the decision to keep including DRM that is unreasonable, or dare I say, downright irrational.
Post edited March 24, 2009 by DarrkPhoenix
"Valve today announced a new set of advanced features delivered in Steamworks, a complete suite of publishing and development tools that are available free of charge to developers and publishers worldwide."
So they give it away free, clever business move to do a free version of what companies pay for whilst simultaneously scooping up more users for their own service.
Shit for customers (as evidenced by GTA4, Empire total war & Dawn of war 2 all needing multiple redundant services just to run) but good for business statistics...
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DarrkPhoenix: On the contrary, given that DRM continues to prove ineffective at preventing piracy and really only costs companies money while inconveniencing legitimate customers I say it's the decision to keep including DRM that is unreasonable, or dare I say, downright irrational.

I think THAT is the core of the issue and why valve are giving this new no-drm drm away for free
Post edited March 24, 2009 by Aliasalpha
If it was given away for free, couldn't hackers theoretically reverse-engineer Steamworks to crack the DRM?