Ah ok, thanks for the clarification. I haven't inspected or read on Perse that much due to lack of interest, in fact most that I know about it is from this forum, probably.

This is my big argument against DRM in general. SecuROM and such were one annoying mess, but at least that was easily fixed by Daemon Tools or some other disk mounting system, but these online installers and online verification methods all, ultimately, fall victim to this, which is why i see Galaxy as DRM if a game is required to have it.

Many of us have brought this up. The answer is that the community will likely take care of it, as they have so many other things publishers abandon. They can (eventually) crack Denuvo today, so it's not like they won't be able to in 10-20 years or whatever. For popular games I really wouldn't worry about that aspect of it.

Now, unpopular games... they might slip through the cracks.

cracks is not equals to fix the games 20 years later.
There are many games that only work because someone from the community was able to mod the game to work on modern system. A denuvo cracked game is still a game that it's not easy to modify.
Even here on gog there are games that still have problems because of drm, removed but still acting weird on the game.

If you can name me a halfway-popular singleplayer game that is unplayable due to DRM then I'll concede to that, but I don't think it's happened. I really doubt it will, unless Windows changes to such a degree people can't run whatever they want on it (or collapses entirely), which could happen. Nothing is 100% safe, I'm just saying in general I trust the PC community to keep preserve games since corporations couldn't care less.

OK, I'm going to install a trojan on your computer right now. It won't do anything, it won't affect your performance, it won't try to hijack your computer or try to steal your personal information. But it will be there, on your computer. Would you remove it, given the option?

The Fable 3 DLC, Dark Souls PTDE(until patched), Fallout 3 (until patched).

Are those popular enough for you, or do you need more. The games were eventually patched to remove the broken DRM, but it doesn't change that they were unplayable due to the DRM for a period.

You know... I have the perfect example:
Metal Gear Rising Mac edition.
It was made only few years ago, now the company that made the port was bought by NVidia and don't make mac ports anymore so they decided to shot down the server of their drm.
(and yes, mac is still Personal Computer)

There is also this article that explain that even old drm sometimes is impossible to remove:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/09/16/how-gog-com-save-and-restore-classic-videogames/

I have no idea what this has to do with anything. You guys, as usual, seem to confuse "the community will likely keep games running" with "MAN I LOVE DRM AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!" All I thought we were debating is whether Denuvo will have a long-term devastating effect on PC gamer preservation. My argument is that the community will take care of it, barring some significant change in how Windows operates.



You completely missed the point, but to humor you first... At least one of these is wrong, Fallout 3, based on the old misinformed idea that Games for Windows Live on all titles required an online profile. Fallout 3 allowed an offline profile as easy as pie. Disc version only had a disc check (that wasn't even used outside the launcher IIRC) and the Steam version only had Steam DRM. I can't speak to Dark Souls, never launched it. Fable 3 did require an online check with GFWL I believe.

However as I said, you missed the point. All three of those games were fully available to play on PC if you looked in the right place, no matter how right you were about GFWL. Likely the same with Metal Gear mentioned above, though I know nothing about MAC. Unless you want to tell me Fable 3 was never pirated, which is a bold claim I seriously doubt.

Let me underline this: when I say the community will keep games preserved I mean the community, through patches or cracks or whatever else. I do not mean official means.

I think I see where this discussion is going and I'm out. You claim games will never be broken by DRM because they can be cracked... Battlefield II disagrees with this, but I'm done. Can't have discourse with someone who claims DRM isn't negative and cites "cracks because the community will keep it alive" as a reason. This is a failed argument from the getgo. No, I'm not going to explain it. Yes, you can claim your victory and laugh about stupid plebs and their anti-drm notions. Yes, you'll still look like a moron to most of us here.

And you don't know if the cracked version will work on modern system.
For example Asterix & Obelix XXL2 was not playable on modern system for a long time, only in 2017 one youtuber created the patch only for the DVD original version of the game.
And only because the original "drm" was a joke (just few files the were only on the dvd... jost a copy&paste from the dvd to the installation folder).
With a true drm nobody would create a patch for this game (that was only released in europe).

Also, like I said, that article about gog say that even old drm can be a pain.

Yes, the community is awesome and usually they find a way to preserve old games, but drm is still a pain to make game works.
There are many drm that don't work with Wine (so you are unable to play on linux).
There are many drm (like denuvo and secuRom) that are not really good for security reason (they are rootkit).
There is always online drm that even community cannot bypass.

And by supporting Denuvo you support all this shit.

Maybe you are not smart or you just don't care.


PS. Also the cracked version of Metal Gear Rising Mac is not the updated last version. There are bugs that were fixed in the last version, and saves are not compatible with the last version.
So no... this is still not good.

This argument kind of misses the point imo. Unless the game originally supported this I it might be a pain for people trying to do this but it's not like the game was ever intended to do it. This is most games going forward. It's part of why Galaxy exists now. Because online is the ultimate way to prevent piracy. 'DRM-Free' is a moot term for any of these games. Just look at the thousands upon thousands of games on android which will disappear when their servers go down. This is what people are growing up with now. Preservation, as it existed is becoming less and less applicable to the games industry as it is and likely will become less so in the future. This is mostly temporary. There'll probably be a final crack when eventually there's a gold/ultimate edition eventually. It's probably to Denuvo's benefit that, even if they get cracked, they don't get to get regular patch updates, because that still means there's incentive to buy the game instead.

It was not intended but many times it's just a drm problem not a game problem.

I don't like Galaxy but, right now, it is optional. I really don't like that they try to push it as hard as possible but right now I can still use the site to download installers.
Right now gog is still drm-free (not like it was some years ago but still more drm-free than others stores).
Right now I try to support gog only when there is no other drm-free version on the market because I want others stores to know that some people like drm-free.... that's my way of say "I don't like Galaxy". But I still support gog for the most part because, most of the times, gog is the only place to get drm-free games.
If, in the future, there will be no drm-free games I will just stop buying any games here. But I'm still developing a game so I'm at least sure that my game will be drm-free when I will complete it (since I do it only in my spare time while I work fulltime as a web developer, it will take a few years).

For MG Rising you don't understand. The DRM was not denuvo. There is no last version cracked only because it's a mac game... the cracker did not care about update the game and crack it again (the gold/ultimate edition was already out few years ago).

Good thing I never said that or anything close to it.


Your complete inability to understand my posts makes this a pointless discussion too, so glad we're done with it. :)