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OHMYGODJCABOMB: Meanwhile, we reached 60 votes!

https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/vendetta_curse_of_ravens_cry
But sadly only 2 commentators, you and me.....we need more comments on WHY the game should be here by those voting. :)
I added a vote/comment for it even though I doubt we'll ever see it here. We can never be absolutely sure what can happen in the future and GOG has surprised us with a lot of "when hell freezes over" type releases before so never say never as they say...
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skeletonbow: I added a vote/comment for it even though I doubt we'll ever see it here. We can never be absolutely sure what can happen in the future and GOG has surprised us with a lot of "when hell freezes over" type releases before so never say never as they say...
Thanks!

Yeah, there are not too many chances, but it's worth a try anyway. I think that it's the main idea of the community wishlist.
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OHMYGODJCABOMB: Yeah, there are not too many chances, but it's worth a try anyway. I think that it's the main idea of the community wishlist.
Yeah, hey recently(like a month or so back) bragged about fulfilling a bunch of wishlist entries, so who knows what we'll get them to fulfill next. :D
I would say that the Simulator series titles are not niche, it's totally successful and mainstream stuff. PC Building Sim had sold over 700000 copies on Steam until last summer and has now an estimated 1 million owners. Together with the other Simulator titles it has made the news in the general, non gaming related press. It's a quite successful series that still has a lot potential both at full price and in sales.
Vendetta is a game that most people wouldn't play if they had it for free, and that's what's happened with it.
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Dogmaus: I would say that the Simulator series titles are not niche, it's totally successful and mainstream stuff. PC Building Sim had sold over 700000 copies on Steam until last summer and has now an estimated 1 million owners. Together with the other Simulator titles it has made the news in the general, non gaming related press. It's a quite successful series that still has a lot potential both at full price and in sales.
But how many copies were sold on GOG? According to 9 reviews from real game owners on the store page (last from September 16), not too many GOG customers are really interested in this game. The game sub-forum on GOG is also dead.

Yeah, but according to all these huge numbers, theoretically this game should become a bestseller on GOG...

Like I said before, previous sales on Steam (as well as the number of reviews on Steam) mean almost nothing, because the audience of GOG is different from the audience of Steam.

You are trying to compare things that can't be compared for a number of reasons.

Here is a more truthful indicator of GOG customers interest in this game:
https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/pc_building_simulator

Only 34 votes. And 9 reviews from real game owners on GOG. And the last review was written 3 months ago. Think about it.
I mean, I'm not trying to say that Vendetta will be a bestseller on GOG, but you can see for yourself that even so-called "eurojank" (like Gothic, Risen, Two Worlds and even Sea Dogs) is much more interesting for the community.

Come on, there are more than 200 votes for Demonicon (against 34 for "mainstream" PC Building Simulator) and several thousand votes for Drakensang series, which are also far from perfect in many aspects, just like Vendetta.

And one more time: even if the chance is small, it's still worth a try. At least until someone from the GOG staff comes here and says: "NAH, IT'S DEFINITELY WILL NOT BE RELEASED ON GOG!". :D
The game has an intriguing title.)
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OHMYGODJCABOMB: Here is a more truthful indicator of GOG customers interest in this game [PC Building Simulator]:
https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/pc_building_simulator

Only 34 votes. And 9 reviews from real game owners on GOG. And the last review was written 3 months ago. Think about it.
Sounds like a lack of interest, but the response will probably be something to the effect of "it must have sold all it could already on Scheme" / "it was still a better bet than bringing Grimoire here".

Hey, on a similar note, I wonder what the excuse is for this new game Heroland. I was told that no one is going to buy an RPG with "bad" graphics for $40. Was that a mistake by curation then?
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This entire thread is how people reacted to 2001: A Space Odyssey back in 1968. Believe it or not, but the movie was largely panned pretty hard back when it came out. And that was during a time when New Criticism, which is a way ob "objectively analyzing the text" in America was very widely popular when it came to reviewing Books and Movies. What I mean is that "objectively bad" isn't a statement that can solely exist inside a vacuum. At any case, People wouldn't see any progress back during the age of New Criticism. Same rules do probably apply to todays zeitgeist as well.

At any case, at least when it comes to statistics, people usually reject the argumentum ad populum, which is the notion that the majority of people saying something so it must be true, which is what I don't understand when it comes to this thread. So even if 100% of people say that a game is bad, it doesn't mean that it necessarily is truthfully bad, because another way to look into it can always be applied (if there is tangible data, the data used in this thread is lackluster in general value because its not weighted). You should always read what the reviewers had to say and not just look up whether or not they've liked it or not at large and if said review has any objective criteria that you can relate it on properly, which also means you have to look at "both sides". Let me give two examples on why the argumentation against putting Vendetta on this store seem weird to me by using some very simple criteria.

First, we have Man O War: Corsair (which has a avg of 61% on Steam and a 3.7★ rating on GOG, which doesn't seem like a very good score either. Besides this, it is objectively a barely finished experience, due to the lack of Early Access success and funding. The game, from the outside, doesn't also seem to be widely recognized as a good game, yet it is still on the GOG store. And playing CoAS without any mods whatsoever is a weird experience. Both games are passion projects however. And judging from the positive comments regarding Vendetta: Ravens Cry, I can see fans of the game calling it a passion project as well. Not to mention that even if the game is considered one of the worst ones in 2015 (which has been stated), it makes those few positive voices and arguments on why its good (read the positive reviews on Steam and judge them like you judge and value the negative ones) more interesting to me than focusing on solely the bad criteria. As someone who hasen't touched Vendetta at all, this alone is more intriguing than using arguments that people made 4 years ago on why the game is bad or even terrible.

To phrase all of this but like the non baby boomers, CoAS alone has jank for a whole year of bad games. That doesn't make it a terrible game though. I think a whole lot of argumentation that can be used against Vendetta can be turned around, which is what some people on Steam clearly did. Otherwise it would objectively sit on a 0 instead of a below avg of 45% review score. "Terribleness" doesn't always translate into bad video games either, that has less to do with subjective opinion rather than applying the rules of causation. For instance, any implementation of a feature that can result in massive "jank" still can make the game still feel better objectively (tons of examples for this, just find a game where opinions on it vastly differ), whether or not people like it or not is entirely up to the player, as they're the ones who experience it. There was a huge discussion only about the idiosyncracies regarding good and terrible implementation of gameplay features when Dark Souls was extremly popular (just one example thread out of many). Perhaps some people see Vendetta as a OK game for similar reasons nowadays as well? At least thats at how I see it now that I've looked into this topic a little bit, which did remind me of the whole 2001: A Space Odyssey thing that happened 50 years ago.

Anyway, as for me, I don't see any harm in bringing this game to the GOG Store. There is one exception though, if the game itself is truely broken by measureable objective criteria. And if GOG decided that Vendetta is objectively broken (in many ways) regardless whether or not a handful of people liked it. Its wouldn't be to us to decide if the game "deserves" to be put on the store if the die has been cast about this topic already (though I would buy it should it appear on the GOG store as this game doesn't seem as bad as Risen 2, which was a seriously bad experience. Subjectively spoken of course :D).

EDIT: Reading through the thread is fun and I agree with the moderator.
Post edited December 04, 2019 by Dray2k
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Dogmaus: I would say that the Simulator series titles are not niche, it's totally successful and mainstream stuff. PC Building Sim had sold over 700000 copies on Steam until last summer and has now an estimated 1 million owners. Together with the other Simulator titles it has made the news in the general, non gaming related press. It's a quite successful series that still has a lot potential both at full price and in sales.
One successful title in the genre doesn't mean all such titles will sell as good or nearly as good, though, and steam sales don't automatically mean the same amount of gog sales(different user bases/tastes/etc).

Fact is, more play RPGs(of any type) than sims in most cases, from the data i've seen.

(By more I mean multi million numbers of players compared to the best sims that seem to sell around 1 million copies on some stores)

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OHMYGODJCABOMB: But how many copies were sold on GOG? According to 9 reviews from real game owners on the store page (last from September 16), not too many GOG customers are really interested in this game. The game sub-forum on GOG is also dead.

Yeah, but according to all these huge numbers, theoretically this game should become a bestseller on GOG...

Like I said before, previous sales on Steam (as well as the number of reviews on Steam) mean almost nothing, because the audience of GOG is different from the audience of Steam.
As you said and I/others said before, steam sales numbers are interest doesn't equate to same on gog necessarily, as proven by that data you just presented and more below(in the other bit of your reply). Yet some will continue to tout STEAM sales numbers and interest as applicable to all/the majority of gog interest/user base.

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OHMYGODJCABOMB: Here is a more truthful indicator of GOG customers interest in this game:
https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/pc_building_simulator

Only 34 votes. And 9 reviews from real game owners on GOG. And the last review was written 3 months ago. Think about it.
This shows that the wishlist is very accurate to gauge interest in at least that one game and possibly more, yet it seems gog possibly likes to use the steam numbers more for some odd reason.
Post edited December 04, 2019 by GameRager
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GameRager: This shows that the wishlist is very accurate to gauge interest in at least that one game and possibly more, yet it seems gog possibly likes to use the steam numbers more for some odd reason.
To be fair, using Steam as your only data point leave room for large biases such as audience focus for instance since Steams community which is large and diverse is not the GOG community which is smaller but still diverse. Theres also a lot of costumers who don't participate on both communities yet still use both as well. At any case, using a single data point like Steam sale interest means nothing. What if I tell you that a certain game only sales well because there wasn't any new release out for a while due to a certain demografic? What I mean is that using sales as any sole datapoint really means nothing.

If I would be working with the GOG staff I would take a close look at the 20 most sold games of the day and compile a list every day to determine what the generel interests are and make a avg of "generel interest in sales" while comparing it to the wishlist and how much wishes there are versus games it sold. For instance, Disco Elysium seems to be the new hot game for quite a while now even though its not really a popular game on the wishlist. Perhaps getting more games like this could help boost GOGs popularity in a minor fashion, at least if compared whenever a game made by CDPR is released on the store.

Determining how much impact the wishlist has vs filtering the noise to understand the signal by using various points of data like user interests and sales, perhaps other data like age/gender/country (and how much interests there towards a certain game with every country) can be really helpful in determing what the audience wants. All while still maintaining a general scedule of releasing games to diversify the store. Its not the most perfect example and it can take around 2 years to fully develop a way to determine "gamerinterest" but it can help to find out what the audience wants and what/why certain games sell more than others on specific stores, while getting all sorts of tangible data points that can be used further as time goes by. And its not even an insane assumption, there are AIs in development who can actually predict, quantify and compile whole complex lists if you feed it some data and gives you results that can easily be read by humans. Pretty sure that the entirety of Amazons constumer dataset thats used to predict what the costumer wants with all its complexities most likely goes into the exabytes now, if not its even larger.
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Dray2k: To be fair, using Steam as your only data point leave room for large biases such as audience focus for instance since Steams community which is large and diverse is not the GOG community which is smaller but still diverse. Theres also a lot of costumers who don't participate on both communities yet still use both as well. At any case, using a single data point like Steam sale interest means nothing. What if I tell you that a certain game only sales well because there wasn't any new release out for a while due to a certain demografic? What I mean is that using sales as any sole datapoint really means nothing.
Well that's what the one guy was doing, sadly(using the steam reviews and score to determine if a game would sell well here), and what I also was trying to point out by that reply/post....though you said it much more fluently/convincingly. +1 :)
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GameRager: Well that's what the one guy was doing, sadly(using the steam reviews and score to determine if a game would sell well here), and what I also was trying to point out by that reply/post....though you said it much more fluently/convincingly. +1 :)
Yeah and thats ridiculous. Nobody who takes a discussion serious should do that at all. But at any case, what matters in the end are the people who buy and play games. So if any game resonates with the platform it will also resonate with the audience and therefore it will sell. The opposite is also true, if a game doesn't resonate well, it won't sale.

If a game sells better this may also mean that developers jump back to it to update it as well. To give a previously mentioned example, we do see this with Akela (the guys who make Sea Dogs: CoAS) quite a bit, but theres a lot of examples from all sort of developers. I do like the mentality of some of the game dev who do, instead of working on another product, keep their game "in shape" for interested people to come. Kinda like the artist who tries to create the perfect painting for people who think it is the perfect painting (those who don't will not buy the game anyway). In this case, everybody wins.
Where's the "one data point"?
We have 5 years of review ratings...
We have SteamSpy data...
We have dozens of YouTube videos mocking it...
We have plenty of reviews claiming it crashes every 5 minutes...
We have a $39.99 price point...

And here you go arguing a strawman about incomplete information and acting as if this 5 year old game is now going to be some sort of best-selling classic like 2001: A Space Odyssey...

I have no idea what you guys are smoking...

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As to your silly idea that the GoG Wishlist is a good data point...GoG has said in the past how they notice when the forums are artificially brigading it. This title sat with zero interest for 5 years and suddenly because one person finds out it was rejected in the past, it's now somehow the best thing since sliced bread and belongs here...

The only thing "ridiculous" is your continued persistence in this sham that sales on other storefronts are completely without meaning...