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Andy_Panthro: (I may be the only one to enjoy DS9!)
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TapeWorm: UNTRUE!!! I too loved DS9, although it was no Babylon 5 :P
<snip!>...People are pricks no matter what they listen to, watch or read.

Babylon 5 was a bit better, the Shadows era stuff was quite good, much as the Dominion stuff for DS9 was good.
Babylon 5 had a slightly more accurate view of humans in space, including a large military/government presence. Star Trek on the other hand, talks about peace (the Federation) "We're all peaceful an that, prime directive an stuff", while having some sort of authoritarian-socialist hierarchy and their ships armed to the teeth.
On the other point, I wholeheartidly agree - people love to put other people in boxes, what you do, where you live, what music you like, what films you like, etc. etc.
As for Pop being the music of those that don't care... um... I don't think so. I would bet that a lot of people who listen to chart pop music wouldn't be so tolerant of metal or jazz for example.
Post edited April 14, 2009 by Andy_Panthro
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Andy_Panthro: Babylon 5 was a bit better, the Shadows era stuff was quite good, much as the Dominion stuff for DS9 was good.
Babylon 5 had a slightly more accurate view of humans in space, including a large military/government presence. Star Trek on the other hand, talks about peace (the Federation) "We're all peaceful an that, prime directive an stuff", while having some sort of authoritarian-socialist hierarchy and their ships armed to the teeth.
<snipped for righteousness>

That was the thing about Babylon 5 that I liked. The human race wasn't really the holier than thou almighty unified race which everyone else just admired. They were primitive, savage and just yet another player on the scene (obviously the human race got some special focus in B5, but not the level in Star Trek).
The primary thing that made B5 > DS9 for me was the story. I loved the whole Dominion arc, but I felt that sometimes they had too many "filler" episodes (Vulcans playing baseball... wut?) and then I'd lose interest to the point of where I'd be skipping past them on the dvds so I could get to the meat of the story. I had a much easier time with B5.
However the acting in DS9 far surpasses the acting in B5... jesus...sometimes I'd just cringe at the dialogue and its delivery (although the rivalry between G'Kar and Londo always kept me full of lulz). Oh, and the CGI in B5... well... they need some updating to be sure :)
Post edited April 14, 2009 by TapeWorm
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TapeWorm: The primary thing that made B5 > DS9 for me was the story. I loved the whole Dominion arc, but I felt that sometimes they had too many "filler" episodes (Vulcans playing baseball... wut?) and then I'd lose interest to the point of where I'd be skipping past them on the dvds so I could get to the meat of the story. I had a much easier time with B5.
However the acting in DS9 far surpasses the acting in B5... jesus...sometimes I'd just cringe at the dialogue and its delivery (although the rivalry between G'Kar and Londo always kept me full of lulz). Oh, and the CGI in B5... well... they need some updating to be sure :)

Ah yes... the baseball episode. Things like that really spoiled things.
I would imagine that one of the reasons Battlestar Galactica has done better (more popular, more widely viewed) is the standard of acting.
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Syme: See JudasIscariot's post above yours.
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cogadh: I know what it is, I just fail to see the point of it. I am a huge Trek fan and I am sure I have been guilty of this same kind of snobbery myself, but when the new Battlestar Galactica came on the air and my wife, of all people, began watching it and enjoying it with me, I began to wonder "Why wouldn't we geeks want other people to enjoy the same things as us?" As long as they don't make the end product an awful mess, which from early appearances, this new Trek movie is not, then all we are doing is being elitist and exclusionary for the sake of being elitist and exclusionary and that is utterly pointless.

It may not serve a purpose that is good for the medium in question. As far as it has a point, it's just pride; in this case, pride in being one of the cognoscenti, a cut above the rest. If the inferiors can enjoy something, it no longer serves the purpose of proving one's superiority.
When I was an undergraduate majoring in music composition, I was determined to create "art for art's sake." Who cared if no one understood it? I had important things to say! It finally dawned on me after a few years that there is little good in having something something to say if no one understands it or wants to hear it. Talking exclusively to one's self is not generally considered healthy.
Of course, I don't say any of this to excuse things that are genuinely bad. I agree with you that as long as the end product is of good quality, it shouldn't matter how many people like it; the more the better I say. I certainly don't define "good quality" to mean something is only appreciated by a select few or has lived up to some supposed legacy.
Since my topic was ignored I will post here...
http://i.gizmodo.com/5211593/star-trek-gets-ruined-in-80-ways-jj-abrams-could-never-dream-of
Yes. Even more ways it could fail.
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JonhMan: Since my topic was ignored I will post here...
http://i.gizmodo.com/5211593/star-trek-gets-ruined-in-80-ways-jj-abrams-could-never-dream-of
Yes. Even more ways it could fail.

I saw that earlier when you posted it in the other topic, I liked the beard ones, beards make the world a better place.
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cogadh: Uhhhh... I don't get it?
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lukaszthegreat: okay.
Fallout 3 is perfect answer for "why trekkies might be angry that non-trekkies like the movie"
Fallout 1 and 2 have a lot of fans. They worship the games, they replay them all the time. They are niche market though.
So suddenly Bethesda comes in and creates a sequel to their beloved game and mass markets it.
and for fans their beloved games are violated, raped by that monstrosity. because whether you think the game is good or not does not matter, it is not proper sequel, it simply is not worthy to carry Fallout's name.
so trekkies are worried that what they love, what they cherish will be ruined so it appeals to bigger market.
And I agree with them. They have right to be worried.

+1.
Star Trek movies follow a certain style. To deviate from that style and incorporate film making elements that break from tradition is blasphemy. Star Trek is sacred, and JJ Abrams is setting the altar on fire.
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cogadh: I know what it is, I just fail to see the point of it. I am a huge Trek fan and I am sure I have been guilty of this same kind of snobbery myself, but when the new Battlestar Galactica came on the air and my wife, of all people, began watching it and enjoying it with me, I began to wonder "Why wouldn't we geeks want other people to enjoy the same things as us?" As long as they don't make the end product an awful mess, which from early appearances, this new Trek movie is not, then all we are doing is being elitist and exclusionary for the sake of being elitist and exclusionary and that is utterly pointless.
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Syme: It may not serve a purpose that is good for the medium in question. As far as it has a point, it's just pride; in this case, pride in being one of the cognoscenti, a cut above the rest. If the inferiors can enjoy something, it no longer serves the purpose of proving one's superiority.
When I was an undergraduate majoring in music composition, I was determined to create "art for art's sake." Who cared if no one understood it? I had important things to say! It finally dawned on me after a few years that there is little good in having something something to say if no one understands it or wants to hear it. Talking exclusively to one's self is not generally considered healthy.
Of course, I don't say any of this to excuse things that are genuinely bad. I agree with you that as long as the end product is of good quality, it shouldn't matter how many people like it; the more the better I say. I certainly don't define "good quality" to mean something is only appreciated by a select few or has lived up to some supposed legacy.

Good point.
This behaviour commonly has more to do with the need people have to feel they are part of something 'special' or that they are 'on the know' and the rest of the world is not (the superiority aspect you mentioned), than a real or objective concern regarding the actual quality of subject X newest/upcoming iteration.
That's why so called 'fans' are willing to bash subject X upcoming iteration, without little or no knowledge of what said iteration will actually look like, the moment they feel that there's a chance it will please the masses.
Typical sub-culture mentality that always has problems when their private 'world' is depicted in a such way that creates a chance for 'everybody' to enjoy and get in on it.
Games, movies, music, art, fashion, trends, it's pretty much all the same.
Everybody needs to feel they're somehow special and being part of a 'closed' or sometimes even 'secret' social/cultural network that the rest of the world doesn't get it's a way for many peolpe to achieve that.
At least that's why i attend the weekly meetings at my Sorcerers Guild.