Mixture of the RPS series of posts on Solium Infernum and the other thread on Strategy Games got me wondering.
Does anyone know of any good 4x games with a fantasy theme and the ability to use magic? Magic as in direct-damage spells/whatever (even if just in the form of an ICBM) or for the traditional Espionage-style thingies of other 4x games. And preferably from pretty early in the game, since non-direct attacks (missiles and the like, for the Civs) tend to be late game, and Espionage sucks until late game in any space 4x (and forever, if your opponents have half a brain :p)
I am preferably looking for something that is available from GoG, Impulse, or Steam (in that order :p), just for convenience. Age isn't too big of an issue, although shiny is always nice :P
Thanks, and a big shiny Answer-flag to whoever gives me something that looks fun first.

Interesting article, even if I find it a bit questionable (but I am a cynic who always distrusts academia :p). When I get bored enough at work I'll probably read the paper itself.
But that is for DRM in general, more specifically, ebook and DVD movies. More pointedly, I think that when they say "pirate", they are actually referring to the people who are just pirating rather than trying to use their own legal copies. Deaf Bible lady pirated her BIble after buying one from Amazon, and all the DVD movie examples include people who pirated copies because they couldn't rip their own.
For a game related example: I bought the newer Bard's Tale a few months back. CD version. Doesn't support Vista, so I had to pirate the DVD version to play.
So just to clarify why that isn't really relevant and doesn't prove your point:
Not for games: I don't mind needing a driver's license. I don't mind needing a hunting license. But if anyone ever dares to make me get a license for my Zune, heads will roll. Exaggerated point, but it is still worth pointing out that people feel differently about different media. Look at these forums, people don't know what DRM is, they just know they hate it. Admittedly, we all hate activation models, but most people don't realize that serials and disc-checks are DRM too.
It is more about how DRM forces people to pirate things to legally use their stuff: Kind of hinky, but evidently, it is easier to pirate a movie than rip it off the DVD you bought. No shock there.
Like I said. It is a noble thought that you don't want to believe things without proof. But you don't get to discredit points of views do to a lack of evidence if you yourself don't have evidence :p

You are completely missing the point. It's not about you, it's about GOG, and about how much damage can be done to them when the pro-DRM people shout loudly in the media that all those anti-DRM people are nothing but a bunch of dirty pirates, using abandonware links on the GOG forum as an example. It doesn't matter one bit what you think of their arguments.
Again you are missing the point completely. You are not harming them by undermining their sales, you are harming them by indirectly linking them to piracy.

My point is that DRM doesn't help at all, and in some cases hurts legitimate sales of games. That it can hurt sales is evident by the high piracy rate of Spore and World of Goo. Is every single on of those pirated game only pirated by folks that wouldn't have bought it anyway? I doubt it.
Here is an article that illustrates my point entirely. Pay attention to what Ron Carmel [co-founder of San Francisco-based developer 2D Boy) has to say:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4020/pc_game_piracy_why_bother_with_.php
If you can show me any evidence where DRM has actually HELPED a company's bottom line, then I will shut-up about it. But, I have been looking for around a half hour, and I can't find anything. One would suspect that gaming companies would scream it across the internet, if in fact DRM helped at all.
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You are completely missing the point. It's not about you, it's about GOG, and about how much damage can be done to them when the pro-DRM people shout loudly in the media that all those anti-DRM people are nothing but a bunch of dirty pirates, using abandonware links on the GOG forum as an example. It doesn't matter one bit what you think of their arguments.
I disagree with this point entirely. They can claim it all they want, but their argument is easily discredited.
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Again you are missing the point completely. You are not harming them by undermining their sales, you are harming them by indirectly linking them to piracy.
Eh? Unless I am employed by GOG, I don't think it matters. No court in the land would convict a company by what a consumer says. Imagine if I were to say something like, "I love soft-drinks, I steal every soft-drink I consume", and then the media were to go after Coca-Cola for how they sell Coca-Cola. It is the same thing. Your argument fails to hold water with me; I think is implies a false inference.

We are in complete agreement there.
...but trying to illustrate the point that DRM can hurt sales, by highlighting how a game with no DRM whatsoever has been pirated to hell and back is, frankly, a baffling approach.

And my point is that you are entitled to your opinion. But it is only an opinion with no real backing.
Neither of us have evidence, and I am not asking you to shut up (about that). All I am asking you to do is to not pretend that your perspective (with no evidence) is any better than other perspectives (with no evidence).
You looked around for half an hour and couldn't find anything: There is a reason for that. There have been no studies on this topic. Well, no public studies. There is a high likelihood that there were private studies done by the publishers and DRM companies, but it is kind of hard to cite those.
As for companies not telling everyone the results of their studies: Why would they? None of the militantly anti-DRM people will believe them (look at other threads on this forum, where the consensus is that all publishers are lying sacks of crap. I don't disagree, but it is pretty funny :p), the people on the fence won't care, and those who don't care don't care. One could think that the fact that we still HAVE DRM is their way to "scream it across the internet", but I won't make that claim (I'll just imply it :p).
And let's say that they DID publish some very conclusive studies. Do you think anyone would care? Take a look at the current incompetence surrounding air travel. Every time a new security measure is pushed (whether it actually makes sense or not), people scream and yell because they are inconvenienced. I am usually pretty pro-security, and even I complain that I can't use gel insoles on airplanes (and there actually is a semi-good reason for that one).
Seriously though, just don't pretend your side has any more evidence than any other side. When all we are basing things off of is "common sense" and incomplete studies and anecdotes, we don't have evidence.

Err, fair enough, my mistake. I got World of Goo confused in my head. So, only Spore then.
And, to sum up:
1) Downloading Abandoware is illegal (something I never argued with)
2) I have agreed that it is not worth the hassle to me or to GOG to post said links.
3) I don't think it was disrespectful or harmful to GOG in any way, but it is better to be safe than sorry.
4) DRM is useless, and I believe it actually hurts a company's bottom line. Else, companies would come forward with the proof to show all the anti-DRM folks that it, indeed, is necessary. Instead they are actually reducing DRM in games (Such as Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 requiring only disk checks for the main game).
Not much anyone says is really going to move me from my opinion on these points, barring credible statistical information touting DRM as cost-effective. So, I'll just leave it at that. I'll let you all have the last word, I am done with this thread :).

I think Wishbone's point was more about the perceptions publishers have about DRM and piracy. Many publishers are already hesitant to release even old games in a DRM free format, and anything associating GOG and its customer base with copyright infringement is only likely to make it more difficult for the folks at GOG to bring publishers on board.
Anyway, since the whole linking to abandonware sites issue has already been resolved, perhaps we should all stop derailing this thread and let it get back to the topic of 4X fantasy games.

I am a small enough man that I like to get the last word :p
For the umpteenth time, nobody was trying to change your mind. All I was trying to do was to just correct you in that you implied that you had evidence where those who are "pro-DRM" don't. Newsflash: You don't have evidence either. Nobody has evidence except for the people who aren't sharing it with us (and they might not even have it).

Uhm, no. If they can point to an abandonware link on the GOG forum, they will actually have effectively proven that the GOG forum is used for piracy.
1. No, it is not the same thing.
2. What do courts and convictions have to do with anything? It doesn't matter that GOG cannot be held legally responsible. This is not about law, but about image. And image is ruled by the media.
Here's just about how the argument would go: "There is only one game company that consistently refuses all forms of DRM. Let us look at what sort of customers they attract, shall we? *gasp* PIRACY!", and they would have made their point. It doesn't matter that their point is stupid or mostly inaccurate, because they would be able to make it convincingly using posts from the forum itself. And the conclusion of the argument would be "People who are against DRM are pirates".

You pretty much nailed it ;-)

I just tried the demo of Dominions 3, and while the gameplay seemed fun, with a very deep character/nation design mechanic, the graphics+sound really put me off. It's not just that they're simple, or outdated. They're very much unpolished, which bothers me. If they'd polish the rough edges on those a bit, I might consider buying it. But that's not going to happen, so I just saved myself $50 :P
Also, seriously, guys, I'm having trouble finding the on-topic posts here. It's annoying.
Here's a tip: if you find yourself participating in a discussion on the internet, press Cancel and go do something else. They're useless. For one, no one's ever going to change his/her mind, so every post after the first stating your opinion/argument is useless and a waste of your time.

I can’t say I blame you as I did the same thing when it was still Dominions 2. I just couldn’t get into it based on the demo and clunky interface and it probably was a year later when I took the plunge on Dominions 3.
Once I got over the hurdles of the UI (I never cared too much about the graphics), I really found the game had one of the best combinations of tactical and strategic gameplay in MP mode. I like the idea of setting your orders in advance and then watching the output of your battles. There are so many spells and combinations of units / powers yet no one totally dominating strategy so that the game provides that appeal of making you think about it when you are not playing it. Strategically, you must look at the strengths and weaknesses of your nation and then design a pretender that helps you achieve your strategy. Scouting is actually useful so you can see what the enemy has in store for you and prepare a counter. Assassins can take out expensive mages and throw a wrench in to your plans. And diplomacy can bring down the mightiest nation. Good stuff!
But I appreciate it takes a pretty hungry gamer to get over the hurdles of the graphics, UI, and learning curve.

Elemental looks awesome.