LootHunter: You saw what? That people were saying "I hate women/n**gers/fa**ots, only white straight men should be game protagonists"? What percentage of GamerGate did they constitute?

babark: Even the stuff about "Gamers are dead". I mocked and laughed at "Gamers" in their mom's basements who boasted their KD ratios in CoD while yelling about copulating with my mother, and lamented that their tanks were taking the brunt of aggro to the healer's HoT in WoW (dunno the slang, don't care), long before GamersGate or those articles were a thing.

LootHunter: So, you DO say that accusations of a game supporting derogatory attitude towards women don't lead to censorship of that game?

devoras: Is it a bad thing to portray women as valuable things...

devoras: But she is advocating for getting rid of the 'save the princess' type games which are marketed towards men.

babark: Yes.

babark: No she wasn't. Where did she say "Get rid of the games that use this plot!"?

babark: But if you look at it within the culture and time it is being made, with so many other game developers randomly and separately coming up with the same plot so often that it has become a trope, it says something.

babark: I take it you're translating her comment about online communities in general (I couldn't find her reference Youtube anywhere in her speech) where she says "It's not enough that they put band-aids on the problem areas, that they need to completely re-imagine what their systems look like, in order to build sites that actively deter online harassment, that make it harder to do this." as "She's asking to censor Youtube!"? Because I read it the exact opposite- censoring and banning people would be the band-aid. But I guess nuance is no fun, right? It doesn't make cool headlines.

Following this, you share with me a blank document, a bunch of images that could be taken from anywhere (that don't even support your point), a list of archive.is links that appear to be blocked for me, and finally a video someone uploaded to make fun of people for playing a game?

How about this, instead of trying to drown me in a low quality info-dump, pick the one most obvious, best case (someone unequivocally linked with...I dunno, SJWs or whatever, who explcitly calls to ban or censor games) right from the original source, that proves your point? If someone wants to ban or censor games, that's what they want, they're not going to hide that, right?

Because what you got right now is "evidence" the same way that 4chan's mountains of nonsense was "evidence" of a Pizzagate conspiracy. I mean, it might be a cool psychological trick ("Hey, if there's 5000 points here, but most of the ones I've individually looked up are weak, but there must be SOME truth to it, after all, where there is smoke, there is fire!"), but it doesn't hold up to reality.

devoras: Honestly it was a big mess, I only made it 4-5 episodes before I left in disgust midway through an episode. Not only does it not feel like a star trek show, not follow any sort of continuity, and have terrible acting. They don't even try to make the world feel plausible, they try to use sonar in space(protip to their writers: sonar requires air to propagate sound waves, and would be too slow to be effective in space anyway), one fight the captain does some silly plan where he drops torpedoes at the enemy ship instead of shooting them and then teleports away from the fight entirely, just hoping his plan worked. Because if it didn't, they just left a planet full of civilians alone to get butchered for literally no reason. They talk about fungus in space connecting everything together, there's so much wrong with it I can't even.

On the upside, it does have some of the best looking visuals I've ever seen in a science fiction show(except for the ship designs). That's the only good thing I can say about it, though.

Sorry for going off topic, but as you can see my dislike of the show has nothing to do with racism or sexism. But apparently not liking it is enough for them to consider me racist and sexist. The Expanse is an amazing show, though.

babark: As a way to move the conversation forward: Do you believe that critical analysis and discussion of the cultural aspects of a video game, and how it is situated in the culture it is created for, contribute to an atmosphere of banning and censoring games?

devoras: Okay? So the way we should respect women more is to... portray them like they're garbage? I don't follow that logic.
[...]

devoras: Okay? So the way we should respect women more is to... portray them like they're garbage? I don't follow that logic.

devoras: That's the implication. This game is bad, it's sexist! Of course people want to get rid of sexist things. There is a real problem with people using that label wrong though, and trying to use the powerful negative word against things that it doesn't apply to. That's clearly what she's trying to do.

devoras: Right, that's because it's based on real life. If you look at movies, they show women usually putting on makeup, randomly and separately coming up with that. But I think you'll find that's because they got it from reality. Women didn't start wearing makeup because of movies. You have some confusion on correlation and causation here.

amok: Strange suggestion - what about portraying them as people instead of things? (i.e. neither as "valuable things" or as "garbage")

babark: What has this got to do with what you are talking about?

babark: I mock people who took what was historically considered the hobby of excluded and sidelined individuals, and used it as a platform to abuse, sideline and exclude individuals.

babark: Because I saw it? I'm not blind. Do you think my only exposure to the outside world is what "Anita and Wu" tell me?

babark: Even the stuff about "Gamers are dead". I mocked and laughed at "Gamers" in their mom's basements who boasted their KD ratios in CoD while yelling about copulating with my mother, and lamented that their tanks were taking the brunt of aggro to the healer's HoT in WoW (dunno the slang, don't care), long before GamersGate or those articles were a thing.

babark: So nobody should speak out against aspects they find problematic in games, because the games might then be censored or banned? That's a bit of a silly perspective to take. If someone has a problem with what is being said, provide a counter to it. Unfortunately, while there were a couple valid criticisms and counter-perspectives of some of what someone like Anita said, they were massively drowned out by harassment, insults, and "SHE'S TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OUR GAMES!" hyperbole, that only strengthened her point.

babark: Is saving a princess something that comes up regularly in reality? I tried googling "real life princesses that needed saving", but google utterly failed me :D.
So you can have a fat italian plumber with a red hat and big moustache who destroys mushroom monsters by jumping on their heads, and collects different kinds of mushrooms to grow big, and flowers to be able to throw fireballs, and he can jump down plumbing pipes to get to underground chambers full of coins, but we need reality, so he's saving a princess?

babark: Is it clearly what she's trying to do, when every video of hers on the topic explicitly (not with any "implication") started with a laborious disclaimer that you can love a piece of media and still criticise it, and that criticism of problematic aspects of a piece of media isn't wholesale condemnation of it?
This goes back to what I said initially with people building up a bogeyman and blowing it out of proportion. Nobody is coming to take away your games.

babark: Even the stuff about "Gamers are dead". I mocked and laughed at "Gamers" in their mom's basements who boasted their KD ratios in CoD while yelling about copulating with my mother, and lamented that their tanks were taking the brunt of aggro to the healer's HoT in WoW (dunno the slang, don't care), long before GamersGate or those articles were a thing.
And I've been playing video games close to 30 years now. I'm HAPPY that those people don't represent my hobby, and I'm HAPPY that more people appreciate this wonderful medium like I do, I'm not jealous or angry that more women or diverse people are getting into it (as some people in this thread explicitly stated they are). That's a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

LootHunter: Ah, so you mocked and laughed at people for not sharine you beliefs. Good. Now we know what a person you are.

babark: I mock people who took what was historically considered the hobby of excluded and sidelined individuals, and used it as a platform to abuse, sideline and exclude individuals.

LootHunter: And how you know that those people did that? You just took a word of Anita and Wu for it?

LootHunter: You saw what? That people were saying "I hate women/n**gers/fa**ots, only white straight men should be game protagonists"? What percentage of GamerGate did they constitute?

Gersen: But what of those who disagree that this aspect is problematic of even that enjoy this particular aspect and don't want to see it removed from new games.

As an example if somebody say : "[I]I love gaming but I do think that violence in games is highly toxic and contribute to lowering peoples empathy push them toward violence, I don't call for banning or anything but I think that developers making violent video games have blood on their hands and should take responsibility and grow out of it.[/i]" you can always argue that it's not a "wholesome condemnation" of gaming, that they are only criticism an aspect that they find problematic, but can you really pretend to peoples who enjoy war FPS or others "violent games" that this person doesn't want to take away the games they enjoy ?

babark: You can understand now that you seem to be replying to a conversation that never happened? What have "Anita and Wu" got to do with anything? "Gamergate"? What?

babark: mock people who took what was historically considered the hobby of excluded and sidelined individuals, and used it as a platform to abuse, sideline and exclude individuals.

babark: to abuse, sideline and exclude individuals.

LootHunter: But failed to explain how you knew those people used games

Crosmando: But that's the beauty of it, if the mainstream start believing that all gamers are abusive, sexist, racist, Nazi white males then maybe all the casuals will get scared away and leave our hobby alone. Everything that is bad in gaming these days comes from devs and publishers trying to push products to casuals, video games were awesome in the 90's and 80's because gaming was a nerdy male thing, once the casuals and women and their phone games invaded, games started getting worse.

devoras: Ok, how about portraying them as a valuable person, someone worthy of putting your life on the line for to save.

amok: That would be a nice start, yes. Sarkassian's (and other feminists) argument, though, is that not how they are threated, but rather they are portrayed in the way as you just described - either as "valuable things" or as "garbage".

it also brings up another question - "So, only a specific type of women is worth saving?"