It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
dtgreene: There are some games (typically RPGs and RPG-adjacent games) in which, as you level up, so do the enemies. You gain a level, and the enemies you face are more powerful.

It's easy to think of games that have been heavily criticized because of this mechanic, like TES: Oblivion and Final Fantasy 8; perhaps it's because they implement the mechanic rather poorly.

My question is: Are there any games that implement this mechanic *well*?
None.
I'll say Pillars of Eternity: Deadfire has some decent scaling. It's optional but it is there if you want it.

I think the reason that it works for me is that as you get to higher levels in that system, you get new abilities, synergies and strategies that you can employ. If the enemies scale with you, you have to use your noggin and not just rely on your numbers being bigger. That said, if your tactics and understanding of mechanics is good, you can still overcome so you don't really end up feeling like you're weak.
A related feature that I like better when it's done: dynamic level-setting; usually only deleveling. That is, [optionally], when you play a stage, the game will set your gear and stats to what they "should be" for that level. This is sometimes, but not always, an optional feature.

Nioh 1 and 2 have this as an option, plus the "twilight stages" always have it on. Your gear and stats are downleveled (if over) to the level that stage is set for. This has the effect of making the stage harder than it otherwise would. You still get plenty of other things you gain from leveling (additional skills available, weapon proficiency, etc), so you can get better at them to some degree. But you can't grossly outlevel them with your gear. Where it's optional (when replaying stages), you either replay the stage normally, but get drops as normal for that stage, or you set level sync on to make it harder by deleveling you, but the drops are all equivalent to your current level.

Guild Wars Nightfall and/or GWEN had this for a few of the levels. I don't quite remember the exact details, but I think at least part of it was "set your level to 20 even if you're not for this stage".

I've seen it other places, sparingly, but I can't recall where at the moment. It feels like a better way to do level scaling -- opt-in, and not by boosting the opposition but handicapping the player.
Level scaling is a horrible idea.

Give us the risk that the area we explore is just too tough and we have to run away.

Or that we are highlevel and lowlevel opponents die super easy.
avatar
mqstout: I've seen it other places, sparingly, but I can't recall where at the moment. It feels like a better way to do level scaling -- opt-in, and not by boosting the opposition but handicapping the player.
Disgaea has opt-in enemy level increasing that boosts the opposition, though not in proportion to your level. If anything, the annoying aspect, which was mitigated in later installments in the series, is having to go to the Dark Assembly and repeatedly propose bills to change enemy levels.

(Also worth noting that, in these games and many other N1 games, an enemy that's exactly level 99 gives a lot of XP, a bit more than a level 300 enemy I believe. Hence, one strategy is to find a way to get an enemy to be exactly level 99, then kill it for XP.)
avatar
mqstout: A related feature that I like better when it's done: dynamic level-setting; usually only deleveling. That is, [optionally], when you play a stage, the game will set your gear and stats to what they "should be" for that level. This is sometimes, but not always, an optional feature.
Wow... Talk about REALLY making advancement and equipping pointless.
Despite my general dislike of level scaling, I have seen a great example of it. But this arises more due to a necessity I suppose.

In Final Fantasy XIV, you are level synced (down synced) when you're overleveled in certain instanced events. This happens for example all the time on the overworld where there are random timed events popping up here or there (FATEs). Only if you press the Level Sync button in the area, do you get to participate.

More relevantly, level syncing happens with daily dungeons and trials (the Duty Roulette). This enables experienced players, some almost maxed out, to team up with new ones who might even be doing the dungeon for the first time. What's the incentive? It's still challenging due to level scaling, and the rewards are adjusted to compensate. So a low level dungeon can potentially bring in huge amounts of EXP. Your time and effort is rewarded, and it helps the new players clear out the story content with companions. I think it really works, big fan of it.
I agree it kills the game, but if not done well....but reasonably:
Starsector.

It still sucks as a system, but it can mostly be seen as a bounty system thing and not explicitly tied to the core game. Thus, it still sucks. But it can also be avoided and not impact immersion much.

Interesting question. Made me think a moment.
While I haven't tried it yet(just started a new game after a few years and saw it in the setting screen) I think level scaling should work fine in The Witcher 3, I always hated to go back to early regions when I got to endgame because the enemies were just worthless trash to slog through rather than any challenge.

I would agree with mostly every point outside of this and say scaling/leveling generally sucks.
Post edited June 11, 2023 by comradegarry
avatar
comradegarry: I think level scaling should work fine in The Witcher 3, I always hated to go back to early regions when I got to endgame because the enemies were just worthless trash to slog through rather than any challenge.
I think it was "Two Worlds" (iirc?) that made that even better:

later in game, when you had evolved into a real badass already, wolves and bandits (which had been a threat in earlier levels), would quickly try to retreat from attempted attacks, or even ran away, as soon as they saw you coming.

Now, that's what I call believable behaviour of clearly inferior enemies.
avatar
comradegarry: I think level scaling should work fine in The Witcher 3, I always hated to go back to early regions when I got to endgame because the enemies were just worthless trash to slog through rather than any challenge.
avatar
BreOl72: I think it was "Two Worlds" (iirc?) that made that even better:

later in game, when you had evolved into a real badass already, wolves and bandits (which had been a threat in earlier levels), would quickly try to retreat from attempted attacks, or even ran away, as soon as they saw you coming.

Now, that's what I call believable behaviour of clearly inferior enemies.
Earthbound did that, and rather famously, if you were to initiate combat with such a weaker enemy, the game would just skip the battle and award you the experience outright.

Early Final Fantasy games, specifically 1 and the *original* version (only) of 3, would have low level enemies run from you once battle has started. In fact, one class in FF3, Bard, has an ability that specifically lowered enemy levels so they'd get scared and run away. (Too bad original FF3's Bard was basically useless.) FF2 also has weak enemies running away from you, but I don't think it's based on stats (FF2 has no level stat for players, though enemies have a Rank stat that's comparable to the Challenge Rating stat in Dungeons & Dragons).

In original FF3, it's possible for enemies to try to run away and fail.

FF4 got rid of this mechanic, but there's still one ability a character has that's supposed to make enemies more likely to flee; it doesn't actually have that effect.

FF3's remakes got rid of the mechanic, and that Bard class was completely reworked, with more useful abilities like being able to restore at least 10% of the party's HP at the start of the round without spending any resources.
avatar
mqstout: A related feature that I like better when it's done: dynamic level-setting; usually only deleveling. That is, [optionally], when you play a stage, the game will set your gear and stats to what they "should be" for that level. This is sometimes, but not always, an optional feature.
avatar
Cavalary: Wow... Talk about REALLY making advancement and equipping pointless.
Notice I said it's opt-in, toggled per stage (except a few special challenge stages that always have it on). It's actually fun to do the stages with that on sometime. It also lets you replay old stages that you enjoy more, but still get late-game rewards for it too. And, as I mentioned, they still tend to be a bit easier than later stages due to mix of enemies, newer powers you have, etc. Just by raw stats, you're not one-shotting everything if you turn it on.
Post edited June 11, 2023 by mqstout
avatar
comradegarry: While I haven't tried it yet(just started a new game after a few years and saw it in the setting screen) I think level scaling should work fine in The Witcher 3, I always hated to go back to early regions when I got to endgame because the enemies were just worthless trash to slog through rather than any challenge.

I would agree with mostly every point outside of this and say scaling/leveling generally sucks.
Yeah well thats a problem of bad game design, not of missing level scaling.
avatar
BreOl72: I think it was "Two Worlds" (iirc?) that made that even better:

later in game, when you had evolved into a real badass already, wolves and bandits (which had been a threat in earlier levels), would quickly try to retreat from attempted attacks, or even ran away, as soon as they saw you coming.

Now, that's what I call believable behaviour of clearly inferior enemies.
I don't remember than happening in Two Worlds. I think it was just that badly wounded enemies sometimes attempted to flee.

But it does happen in Sacred 2. When you are about 10+ level higher than the enemies, their aggro range is reduced to 1/5th of normal and when you are within the normal aggro range, they slowly back away from you or freeze in fear. So you have to go out of your way to have them attack you.