The Wi-Fi went down here last night and is still down. I'm traveling back home today and can only phone post if needed until then. I also request a deadline beyond today. The Monday suggested should be fine.

I see. Why didn't you poke him again?


You should cut down hanging out with HijacK.

My "personal agenda" is to fight for a town victory to the (bitter?) end, and that includes not giving anyone a free pass.


Which is exactly why including yourself in the suspects list, and the subsequent "most honest and truthful assumption" lecture felt off to me, more so at this point in the game, with the specific players still alive.


Which brings us back to my original point; we're talking about cristigale here, not game theory in a vacuum. This whole thought process makes sense only if you actually think that cristigale would throw in the towel (this is where the docbear1975 mention ties in). cristigale who never really was under any pressure or (serious) suspicion in the current game; cristigale who as mafia has pulled it off admirably, usually being a late lynch, if at all; cristigale who as a Neutral succeeded to fool Bookwyrm627 to the point he passed her his Vigilante shot in game #48. I don't believe she'd cop out or quit, and frankly, I don't think you do either.

Reminded me of Lifthrasil's "drealmer7's lurking, looks like he's scum at a loss for words" argument both in game #46 and this one


Funny how it wasn't a problem when it was Lifthrasil, HijacK, or trentonlf that were in the spotlight, yet it became one when I started questioning things you said.
Does what you said about perspective and all not apply now? Or are you going to argue that you never liked it, always were suspicious of me, but never showed/pushed it so you don't tip me off?


[emphasis added]

The devil is in the details. You allow inconsistencies and make mistakes, because that (normally?) comes with being town, then act all upset and fed up when questioned; to use one of your own arguments, it probably comes quite naturally to do so as Neutral too.

I raised an eyebrow at your post #936 - seeing where you started off with your questioning cristigale and her alignment, using her reply to you to make that post read like an pre-emptive move to discredit anyone questioning and pointing out things in your play and posts as attempting nothing more than to "capitalise" on.

You may think that I'm trying to capitalise, or so you say, but be honest here - if I didn't question and follow up on things, wouldn't you be pointing out how that is also off for town-me? My point being that one can try to use another's playstyle to paint them in whatever light it suits them best at any given point, and you're no exception from where I'm standing.


Let me see if I got this right. When I was questioning others it was scum hunting, because you yourself wanted them dead, but now that I'm questioning you it's become "looking for the path of least residence so I can move further".

At least you are aware that this argument works both ways.


I was agreeing with you in a somewhat facetious manner. Apparently, I failed to convey it.


I was under the impression that you no longer thought that yogsloth killed bler144. Did you change your mind, and if so, why?

The usual way the Doctor role works doesn't necessarily preclude that she may have been saved one of the two Nights you tried to kill her, does it?

Also, does anything about your shyness mechanic preclude someone blocking you while you're "scared away" because somebody else "does" something to your target?

As for your "simple answer" - hmm...


Why "ouch!"? Is there a good reason to take your word at face value from where I'm standing?


In post #928 you said that you attempted to kill cristigale on consecutive Nights (N2 and N3), and that you think that one of dedoporno or me interfered with your kill. This reads to me like you thought that one of us was responsible for both your failures.

Now you say that you have nothing pointing in that direction, and that you're poking since the pool of players is small. Which still sounds like you were looking for a "culprit" between the two of us. But going into N2, and taking out the players still alive, there were another four that may/could have targeted her, and I don't quite see a reason to exclude any of the dead players. Even less so if you thought that the "simple" answer is that someone else made an attempt on her, given that Lifthrasil "didn't stay on the straight and narrow".

And speaking of your reads and suspicions:

So, if you're town, and if you think cristigale's also town and one of dedoporno or me is scum, what do you think is the other?


[emphasis added]

The way you spoke of this mechanic till now made it sound like you shying away is an automatic ([passive?) reaction. What you say here sounds more like you have the option to use it or not.

Which is it? Are you making it up as you go, after seeing the reactions/questions? And does that "is diminishing" mean that there comes a point that you don't shy away even if someone else is also "doing" something to your target?


I'm aware that you didn't, I'm trying to figure out how the info you've shared could make you one of the good guys. I'm not familiar with the George Zimmermann guy and incident (looked him up, and read a bit about him), so don't get why what you've shared, and the way you did it, is supposed to click, like it seems to for cristigale, let alone make your claim believable.

And the fact that you've yet to answer the questions of why Shooty McShootpants specifically alludes to that guy, why a name change is warranted/justified, and why and how your shyness and the itchy trigger finger fit, doesn't exactly sway me towards believing you.

His response was that I'm slinging hash and voted me in return without further feedback. Both you and cristi questioned him on the same or similar points. I don't see a point in re-asking what has been asked by virtually everyone just for the sake of asking more.


It's not impossible but from where I stand and knowing what I know it's hard to believe so I'm obligated to look doubt everything you and the others say. Currently cristi is the only one who's claim looks more believable in the context of my personal knowledge so at least one if not both of you and flub have to be scum for sure. So I also won't be giving free passes. It's just a matter of perspective and it's a two way street, so I am aware what I see in you or others is possible seen in me from the other end. Others should accept the same.


I've been doing this from the start of every game I have ever played. I'm not stopping now and I will continue to do it in the future. Feel free to read it however you like.


So because it's cristigale it means she no human and outside stuff cannot affect her? What if I told you I was on the verge on asking for a sub twice in the last 2 game days because of overwhelming RL issues (hopefully things got a bit better and at least one emergency fizzled off)? If that can happen to me why couldn't happen to someone else, event if it's the immovable wall cristi seems to be? Let me ask you a similar question - if you give cristi so much credit on not doing something like this do you think so much less of me to expect me to make this as a malicious move to paint her in a bad light?


I didn't understand that part but I don't need further explanation.


It has been a thing to follow the whole game (if you go back to the very start you and Wyrm were the first people who took my attention, and you questioning/commenting for the sake of producing a lot of it has been noted for the majority of the game, and last game also. I didn't ask you if you were scum only to get the meme answer). It wasn't the highest priority because you were pursuing the same players I was most suspicious of which doesn't mean I'm only paying attention to them.

During the previous day I was hoping that you are Town because a lot of what you were saying was making more sense but once other players fell of you became so focused on me which gave me more things to look at and I saw experienced first-hand how going over the same thing and twisting ones words or context can work out (and seeing it first hand when I know what I mean for a fact produces a lot more useful results).


I already said I never liked the tons of content just for the sake of it - I've seen it before and I see this as you weakness when you are scum. Perspective is almost always applicable. You have yours and I have mine. Both of us are working with it in the best way we think we can. Other's perspective let's them decide on what to make of it.

I don't care about tipping you off (this is not meant as an insult).


Yes, I allow it since I'm not going over and over my posts before posting them. I don't always go back to re-read and work with memory. That's why I have spelling, syntax and style errors often. This will not change and I will bear any consequences it may bring. Feel free to use it in whatever way you like.

I agree 100% with the Neutral part. Everyone should be taking this into account regarding everyone at this point (and even in retrospect but that's no longer that useful having the flips). That's mostly the reason why I see everyone as Neutral rather than Mafia.


I wrote and re-wrote a few different responses to this but in the end I decided it's not worth it going there. I think I will be posting less from now on seeing how I have to explain almost any paragraph I write. I like how not being here or using less words works good for others.


If you were doing it at all or less than usual, yes, I most definitely would. But there is difference in doing your usual thing and overdoing it. I've seen this even from the perspective of a mod and even then Trent noted it and no one payed any attention to him. I'm won't be doing that mistake - I may be paranoid and reading too much into it but like you said I'm not giving free passes.


I honestly don't remember where I classified your questions of others as scum-hunting, but yes, I'm pretty sure if another person is pushing alongside it's a lot harder to see suspicion. Now we are clashing and I'm have to consider it as malicious intent by default when I don't agree with it.


Most if not all them do.


Then we are good at least on this point. That's the worst part of this whole discussion. With each response I look for more and more things that may or may not be there to a point where even an agreement looks like something else. I don't know if it's reciprocated to the same extent, but I don't think it's helping.


Not really. I thought and still think this is the scenario that makes the most sense flavor-wise.

Answering via phone so hopefully I won't open a rift which will destroy us all.

Here goes:

Doctor save possible, but not likely twice in a row...said this already.

My shyness is triggered by anything that might happen. I have ZERO control over it.

Surrogates...lol

I'm town and I think cristigale is town and I think either you or dedoporno could be scum. Who's left??

"Diminishing" refers to its use in another role. Its use in my role seems fine as a balancing tool. To use it in another role would be diminishing.

George Zimmerman was never mentioned in my PM nor was he stated as an answer to any question from the moderator. It was a deduction I made based on the flavor I received later. The shy trigger happy neighborhood watch shooter is an easily recognizable caricature. Such a silly name made me think there was a reason for discretion.

Have mercy that was exhausting.


Off topic: I am quite in heaven with my grandson. Rocked him to sleep last night, got up with him at 3am and we contemplated the stars. Going to the beach tomorrow so if you have questions of me keep it simple please.

This sounds like a damn good time. Enjoy your holiday with your loved ones and tell them we said hi.

I had my claim post ready Friday night, but fell asleep (that should teach me to take my keyboard to bed ;-P), so here it goes.


I'm Edward Tomas Bell, town's Peace Officer, and retired Sheriff with more than 30 years of duty under my belt. I still try my best to protect the people in my community, and have a few means at my disposal to do so. My instinct to protect makes me act each and every Night. In game terms, I'm a JOAT with the abilities of Gunsmith, Doctor, Roleblocker, and Vigilante. I get a second chance at using any of my abilities, but only after I rotate through all of them once.

On N0, I acted as Gunsmith, and chose flubbucket; should be self-explanatory why I did. He returned a positive result, but having a gun didn't automatically condemn him, and I keep an eye on him anyway in every game. His posts about testing the Death Miller claims made me wonder for a while if he wasn't some sort of Cop, and was waiting to see if he'd come forth with anything useful. He didn't, and now claims to be the Town Vigilante, which fits with the gun, yet doesn't necessarily make his claim true.

On N1, I acted as Roleblocker and picked Lifthrasil. As you all may remember, I was pretty suspicious of him and thought he may well be up to no good during the Night. I was not told anything about my action, but if it worked as should and he didn't have a Strongman ability, it's reasonable to conclude that Lifthrasil isn't responsible for any of the N1 kills.

On N2, I acted as Vigilante, and picked Sage103082. As I had said on D2, her play felt off since late D1. I squinted pretty hard when she butted in while I was questioning trentonlf about drealmer7, and persistently accused me of trying to make trentonlf unvote drealmer7 when the former wasn't even voting the latter. I thought that she likely wasn't town, and her posts on D2 only reinforced that thought, so I shot her. I was, again, told nothing, but I assume two things: one, based on the mod's clarification on the double-tap being a single attempt, I was the one that killed her (the double-tap flavour, however, is all RWarehall), and two, based on the mod indicating that both JMich and Lifthrasil were killed by the same sadistic person, she didn't kill Lifthrasil.

On N3, I had only the Doctor left, so I had to make a careful choice. From the available targets, JMich was scum according to trentonlf, so that left cristigale, dedoporno and flubbucket. I chose cristigale as the more likely to be town based on how and what each one of them had posted till then. I also thought that perhaps JMich would make an attempt to kill her. and he still may have regardless of if flubbucket's claim is true or not. I was once again told nothing, but seeing that she's still alive, I guess I did something right.

As I've already said, my actions don't shed much light. Off to see what has been posted since I last was on.

That sounds like heaven, indeed. Have a lovely time with your family, and remember not to spike your grandson's milk... much.


Not sure I can, I'm afraid am a tad too envious; while you are in heaven and going to the beach with your grandson, here we went from boiling in 36°C and '60%+ humidity to soaking in non-stop rain, 22°C.and 80%+ humidity.


And I spoke of a single Night only, but whatever.


[emphasis added]

If either me or dedoporno could be scum, that makes one of us. I'm asking about the other one of the two of us. Did I really phrase it that badly that you didn't get it? If you don't want to answer, just say so; much better than this dancing around.


[emphasis added]

Sorry, but you're not helping me keep it simple.

What does another role have to do with what we're discussing here?

You said initially that you thought it likely that another attempt on cristigale made you fail (post #928).

When questioned about it (post #930), you said that since she survived both of your attempts, something else besides a Doctor protection must be in play. Then added that you think it less likely now to be the case (post #931).

When I asked why you think it less likely now (post #956), you linked your change of mind to the shyness mechanic of your role and said it's because it's diminishing if used more than once (post #959).

Based on the definition of the verb "diminish", and given that you used passive voice, I read that to mean that the more the mechanic kicks in, the less effective it gets in preventing you from going through with the kill. And since you claim to have no control over it and it's triggered by anything that might happen, I assume that failed attempts don't even have to be on the same target.
So my next question was if there comes a point where you grow so "confident" that you stop shying away even if someone else "does" something to your target )post #963).

And your reply is that the diminishing you mentioned earlier refers to its use in another role (post #965)? That using said mechanic in another role would be diminishing?

Either my English became really bad suddenly, or something doesn't add up here; no matter how many times I go over our exchanges, I'm having a really hard time reading what you said in post #959 as meaning what you say in post #965, and how what you say in your post #965 is relevant in any way to our current setup and your role.

@cristigale and @dedoporno - could you two go over these posts, and tell me how you read them?


Perhaps it's a cultural thing; I can't say it's "an easily recognisable caricature". And not knowing the flavour you're referring to, I can't understand why and how you deducted that your role alludes to that specific guy.

Perhaps cristigale can explain it in a way that can make sense to me.


And speaking of her:

Are you back home with a working Internet connection? Because I'd really like you to answer the questions I've asked you.

Having claimed Town Vigilante yourself, I can see at least one reason to doubt flubbucket's claim. Could you lay out what about cristigale's claim makes it more believable? Not that it doesn't look believable to me, I'm just asking for your personal view on it.


The repeated reference to your personal knowledge makes me wonder if you were truthful about your claim, as it doesn't seem to support you having all that much of knowledge. Unless I've missed something?


If you told me that, you'd have my sincere sympathy and best wishes for things to return to normal sooner than later, at minimum to no cost. And I do mean this. Matters of the physical world always take precedence, and I know from personal experience how hard it is to maintain the right mood and state of mind when problems in the physical world hit.

So, in this context, no, of course she's not above this. However, I wouldn't draw any conclusion about her alignment in this case, as I've subbed out a game as mafia due to alarming health issues popping up in the family, and would have subbed out another I was town, had the other players not given me more than a few days to deal with a non-health related emergency.

But my argument was specifically in the context of her throwing in the towel and taking the easy way out, hence the reference to docbear1975; I think it's pretty evident in my posts. That was how I read your initial question to her and your post #958 reply to me, and that was the basis and context of my argument. Since you weren't exploring this avenue, I'm puzzled why you didn't clearly say so in your first reply to me. It'd have saved us both some aggravation.

As for your question, you've lost me; would you like to rephrase/clarify?


Not giving free passes is expected and fine, regardless of alignment - you either genuinely have limited knowledge, or have to pretend to have to. I'd actually be (more) suspicious if you didn't, so you can suspect me all you want, it shouldn't be long now before you're proven wrong. However, while you say it's a two way street and accept it, you seem to reserve the right for yourself to doubt others with suspicion and ascribe malicious intent (by default) to what they say and do, and when they question you and look for possible malicious intent, you take it as more evidence of malicious intent on their part.


When a comment or response, either to me or others, feels evasive, vague and/or is a one-liner, following up and pushing is about the reaction and the sort of further reply it produces, which can be (very) telling. I see value in doing it myself, as well as others doing it as they may inquire in directions I've not thought of; it oftens brings inconsistencies and/or unnatural evolvement in thought process/arguments to light. You are, of course, free to see none and classify it as whatever you want. You shouldn't, however, berate me for allegedly approving only my own play-style and expecting others to play my way.

Where did I twist your, or anyone else's, words?


And none of this automatically makes you town.You're a smart and skilled player, and have the foresight and experience to keep your options open, while taking advantage of all and any "help" to get rid of the ones standing between you and your win condition. More so if you're not town.


I honestly don't know how I should read this.


Anyway, I find myself in conflict. Dealing with overwhelming issues in the physical world always takes precedence, and I can relate to how facing such a situation can interfere with one's play. As a player I don't like giving free passes, but as a person, i don't feel particularly comfortable pushing on any inconsistencies or/and mistakes of yours, as they may be the product of unrelated to the game things - it's one thing to take the possibility of external conditions into account, and another to know for a fact that they exist.

I have to read everything again to see how that fits, but I have the feeling it will fit good enough - it's either true or fake but tailored to match what happened publicly (still will try to re-check before the deadline).

Anyway, what's more important is that now it's a bit harder to find out if flub is telling the truth or not about his powers, his targets and so on. Based solely on claims N3 remains a mystery since HSL protection on cristi would have prevented (in two different ways, actually) flub's kill.

N2 is also foggy since someone else might have visited cristi. If I count correctly that could have been only Lift or Sage. It think it's rather safe to assume it was not Sage, since cristi would have been dead (Sage seems to be a Ninja killer based on her name and the quotes meaning according to trent). Lift hinted towards some overnight knowledge so he may have been some form of investigator or similar. If someone remembers if Lift showed some interest in Sage now would be a good time to share it. Otherwise backtracking is in order.


@HSL, do you have any explanation on how does the double-tap flavor makes sense with your Vigilante ability in the context of Sheriff Ed Bell (I assume it's from No country for old men)? And why RW went out of his way to make sure it wasn't 2 different shots but a specific style of kill coming from one person? Any idea why that would be important if it's going to happen at most once in the entire game?

Also, you say you are forced to act each and every night (right?) which would mean you were specifically asked who you would be gunsmith-ing?


Anyway, if everyone is to be believed Town started with a some weird Cop (I can't remember if Trent actually cited what his role was exactly), a Parity Cop, a and unlimited but shy Vigilante, a JOAT (Vig, Doc, Gunsmith, Block) and a basic one-shot Vigilante.


I still can't make sense of Shooty Mcshootpants in terms of flavor, his shy but still unlimited kills and most importantly - the trigger-happiness. Even in the so called killer-rich environment I can't see a Town mindset to try and utilized his kill ability without pause. I still find it somewhat hard to believe that 2 nights worth pf targeting cristi are suddenly thrown away and she suddenly becomes the towniest of the remaining players.

The added bonus for this is that cristi's next investigation will bring the best result if flub's alignment is known.

He will almost sure be my choice, but I still want to go back a bit if work allows it in the morning and try to cross-check HSL's claim with what happened previously.

It's one specific thing I already shared - an exchange I had with RW who even without giving anything solid still mentioned the Parity Cop role. If I didn't hear about that role role the entire game I wouldn't have said anything since it was supposed to be just an example but having the role makes perfect sense in the context of N0 and when I add the "example" on top of that it's becoming a lot more believable in my eyes.


I believe I have shared everything I know including that bit with RW which I do consider as extra personal knowledge in the context of the latest reveals. I call it personal knowledge since I'm the only one who knows for a fact it happened but that doesn't mean others believe it automatically. My role details are also personal knowledge which can be used to compare with other claims.


I'm trying to keep RL out of the game as much as possible (maybe just that one time where I probably went a bit out of line in my response to you was a situation where I dropped the ball) since I don't want that to be an influence on how people perceive me and my actions. Also, this is not the point here - I brought that up only to show you that it's not impossible even for the strongest players to end up in a situation where the game is beyond them.

It's WIFOM really, but it does bear logic - you said cristi is a strong player who wouldn't be giving up just like that. You said you think I'm smart and skillful. Let's assume I really am. Would I be trying to capitalize on such a cheap move if it's so obvious to everyone she wouldn't do it?

Anyway, I'd honestly like to close that particular topic. I yield that other things may or may not be true (once again I'm being honest in the general context of the game), but I promise that this particular question was asked really in the context I explained above - I read it as cristi having external issues towards which it would have been a relief if the game wasn't going anymore. It's your choice whether or not to believe me and pursue it further.


I'm sorry if it came out as if I was berating you, it was never my intent. I was referring specifically to your question where you made a big case of how I didn't blink an eye to part of flub's claim, since I did question flub, but obviously not in the way you would have liked. Your playstyle includes asking a lot of questions and commenting on lots of small bits and pieces, but my usually doesn't (mostly because of lack of time and general laziness). I don't see that changing anytime soon if ever.

As for twisting words - every time where you point to something in a way that I didn't intent, I see it as words twisting. You may be doing it intentionally or not but I don't have a way of knowing which is it so I have to assume it's on purpose just to keep on my toes.


Agreed. Same goes for everyone including yourself :)


It was once again in the context of an actual RL related thing I said. After you pointed out to in the way you did I actually regretted ever responding there and will probably avoid such things from now on since I don't like such things becoming part of the game.


I'm not sure if this is directed to me still, but if it is it seems you have made your decision. If both of these are the case then don't let what's stopping you stop you. If I'm in the game the RL is under control and even it wasn't I would have been out a long time ago. I don't need nor want slack over it.

That being said, do you honestly find me more suspicious than flub right now? Really? I have to be suspicious ass fuck then...

If it wasn't directed to me then I guess more people may be pressured by outside stuff in which case maybe another extension or a hold can be considered.

Current votes:
dedoporno - flubbucket

Not voting: HypersomniacLive; dedoporno; cristigale

Majority has not been reached.

Deadline is Monday night July 17th Eastern Daylight time.

I actually think I have found the best course of action.

I will refer to it as The Plan.

I'm still not sure where cristi is at right now, but I figure the only two lynch options are flub and myself - I'm pretty sure flub will not be moving his vote and it needs 3 for lynch so obviously I'm one of the options. In that case he automatically becomes the other one. I already gave my reasons why we should lynch him and even if others shared my suspicions of HSL I'd still prefer flub since I'm more sure about him being scum.

What are the options in this situation then?

We lynch flub.

Flub flips Town.

If HSL or cristi are Mafia he will win the game on the spot since we cannot counter him anymore. If he is some Neutral who lied about his powers and actions cristi will still have the chance to work with me since she can investigate and clear me.

If HSL is who he claims to be he can block me so cristi can investigate me in comparison to revealed Town which will be 100% revealing - either Town or Non-Town. In both scenarios cristi will know who to trust or not to trust and just in case I'm scum I will be blocked so nothing harmful can come from me. Flub still wins.

HSL can also kill me but in that case he risks getting 1:1 with Neutral cristi, so no point in taking that risk. Scum cristi will win the game off HSL's suspicion of me anyway.

OR

Flub flips scum. If the game is over then we pat each other on the backs and say we are sorry about doubting each other earlier. All good.

OR

Flub flips scum and the game continues. There is at least one other scum.

If it's HSL he still wins.

If it's me the block approach still works although a "Not the same" read won't necessarily mean I'm scum. Still, a block should be enough to clear or condemn me while keeping scum-cristi in check for at least one more day.

OR

You lynch me.

I flip scum and the game is over - gg Town. I wouldn't count on that.

I flip Town and the game continues. cristi is left with 2 claimed killers who are still able to shoot. The blocking approach is a lot less effective now since cristi's read on flub will bear any value since it will be ambiguous.


I probably neglect some of the potential outcomes but I tried to look at different angles and lynching flub + blocking me looks like the least risky choice for Town.


I also considered no-lynch for a bit but I think that might be putting us in an even worse situation leaving more question marks to worry about and allowing more chances to the killers.

I'm here. Didn't expect to be away that long. Need to go back a page or two to see the questions that need answered.

I believe the night actions that flubb reported. Him killing drealmer makes sense. I don't know why anyone lies about two failed killed attempts on the same player. That part I believe. The name thing and alignment...not so much. Hyper referenced the game where Kryspyn had a similar name. Went back and checked, that was yogs' Women Institute game. No wonder I thought the name sounded liked a yogs invention. All of us played in that game. Our mod was not in that game, although he may have observed. I think the similarities between the names are too much to be a coincidence. Flubb's name seems out of place with the other revealed names in this game. There is a feeling a realism with the other names. I think flubb is lying about his name. Perhaps his real name is an obvious serial killer or mafia member.

In regards to the shyness thing, that could very well be true. If flubb is telling the truth, the shyness thing works with a character based on Zimmerman, but I don't think shyness is an obvious characteristic. It's believeable but not an automatically expected character trait.