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Mr.Mumbles: I like them all. ;) F1&2 inventory/trade system is beyond painful though. *commence perpetual scrolling!* Ugh.

I don't get the whole empty world complaints for F3. F1&2's maps were plenty empty too except for the set locations. Wander the wasteland with a shit-ton of random encounters. At least in F3 and later you can actual discover places and the occasional loot stashes that did not need to be tied into some sort of quest line. And then one can just bounce around places at will due to fast travel. Wandering the wastes in the originals was never all that fun. The car in F2 was definitely introduced because of that.
You're comparing apples to oranges. 90s tech versus Oughties tech is not a comparable comparison at all.
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patrikc: Jon brings up some valid points here and there, but fails to mention several shortcomings. Not hidden mind you, but available in plain sight, for all to take notice.

I do agree, the game can be vague at times (intentional or not), leaving many things for the player to interpret to their own liking.

SPOILERS beyond this point. You have been warned.

Manya Vargas explains how Megaton was built, how it all started: "When the war happened, the machines started dropping from the sky. Everyone around here thinks that the bomb made the crater, but it didn't. The crater provided good cover from the dust storms and when my daddy and the rest of the town decided to build the walls, they used what they had." To which the player replies: "There are a lot of parts here for just one machine"... So Manya mentions an "air station a couple of miles from here. It'd been stripped of everything except the planes. My daddy got a bunch of people together to go out there, break apart the machines and drag back what we could use. It took 'em a couple of months." So much so, that in 2277 there's no trace or track of the aforementioned airport. Yet there's edible Pre-War food in a supermarket located near Megaton.

Springvale might not be the most viable solution indeed. Not for the lack of fortifications (could've managed with those seeing they've built a whole town from scratch), but for another reason - its proximity to the bomb. But as one can notice, bombs seem to affect select structures only (see the White House reduced to a crater, while nearby buildings are still standing).
There were at least two better choices for building a large settlement: the D.C. ruins, or anywhere else in the Capital Wasteland, as long as it was far away from the bomb. These people should fear such a destructive weapon (what about learning from past mistakes?), not build a town around it. And hear this - disarming an atomic bomb is easier than disarming a grenade bouquet or a rigged terminal. What does that tell you?

What about launching a mini nuke with the Fat Man and its blast radius (see the battle at GNR)? Then what about all those cars with nuclear reactors? Are they supposed to serve a tactical purpose, even if the basic concept does not make sense? Sure, you can bait enemies near a car or two, or more, and trap them in the explosion with a bit of luck. But that's about it. The Lone Wanderer can disarm traps, but is unable to set them wherever he/she pleases. At least there are mines...
Which brings me to the combat itself: it's rather poor. Three tactics are on display when fighting whatever the game throws at you, namely backpedaling, shooting straight for the enemy's weapon, and using what cover is available (which works quite well actually).
What does it mean playing on Very Hard difficulty? It's all about damage received (200%) vs damage inflicted (50%). Which transforms the enemies into bullet sponges. See, a raider can withstand even two clips from an assault rifle to the face or several shotgun shells to the chest. For comparison purposes a level 12 feral ghoul reaver has no less than 1100 HP, a level 13 albino radscorpion 1500 HP, whereas a level 13 super mutant master only 360 HP.

Now, concerning the behavior of its NPCs. Four examples I've to offer.
How does Amata react if the Lone Wanderer kills her father? She's somewhat upset.
What's Moira's reaction if the player blows up Megaton? "Well, okay, as long as you're sorry. But I expect you to apologize to everyone in town, okay? And don't do it again." Say what?!
What about James' reaction to the same event? He's very disappointed in you.
And finally, let's assume the Lone Wanderer initiates combat in any given settlement or steals something and the inhabitants turn hostile. Return after 3 in-game days and everyone will turn a blind eye, as if nothing would've happened at all. That's some bad memory right there.

Which brings me to the utterly flawed karma system. Let's assume you blow up Megaton. That means -1000 karma points, making you very evil. Broken Steel introduced several karma-related perks, Elevator to Heaven among them. Choosing this perk grants you no less than 2000 karma points, which obviously makes you very good. What's the player supposed to learn here? That his actions bear no real consequences? That can't be!
Anyone familiar with Carlos, the beggar asking for water outside Rivet City? Giving him a single bottle of clean water grants you 50 karma points. According to Bethesda, blowing up a town can be countered by giving away 20 bottles of purified water or Aqua Cura. What's this then? Megaton has a population of roughly 42. In the event of a certain disaster occurring, Moira alone survives (since she was out of town for some odd reason). In other words, a single bottle of water is worth two human lives and some unknown part of a brahmin.
How did Bethesda implement choice and consequence in the unmarked quest Water Beggars? Take for instance Micky, a beggar plopped right in front of Megaton's gates. If the player refuses to give him clean water, Micky will die. A straight up NO leads to a man's demise. Yet no one seems to be aware of him. No one in Megaton (or at the gates) is willing to help this guy. If he dies, no one will pick up the body. No one gives a damn about him.

And some of the locations...
Arefu developed on a collapsed overpass, for everyone to see and take advantage of. No wonder those wannabe vampires killed their brahmin.
Girdershade consists of two shacks in the middle of nowhere, next to raiders and other creatures, such as yao guais, radscorpions and deathclaws. One of the inhabitants is looking to "plow" a "bean field", whereas the other is addicted to Nuka Cola.
The Republic of Dave sits in Old Olney's proximity, an inherently dangerous place.
Dukov's place is surrounded by raiders, mirelurks, super mutants, centaurs, and the occasional Enclave soldier. Yet no one bothers the trio, since Dukov is a crack shot.
Why would Tenpenny want Megaton destroyed? Hoping people will be forced to move in his tower, perhaps? No one seems to bring up the question whether or not these people have the means to pay Tenpenny. Most of them don't have jobs, where are they going to get caps from?
The inhabitants of Andale have taken to cannibalism since their food supply ran out. Apparently they're unaware food can be found in the wasteland, even if it's two centuries old. Nor have they heard about growing crops and animals. Why bother with such nonsense, right? Don't get me wrong now, cannibalism isn't so farfetched in this universe. Heck, the Lone Wanderer can indulge in such practices for -1 karma. Meanwhile, stealing someone's property leads to -5 karma. But I digress.
Have you heard about the Temple of the Union? This derelict building is home to several runaway slaves led by a fella named Hannibal Hamlin, who is all too eager to share their predicament with a complete stranger. Says Hamlin to the Lone Wanderer: "I'm not going to ask you who you are. For the moment, I don't care. We are all escaped slaves. I need your solemn promise not to betray us [...] Until I get that, you cannot leave here." Next thing you know, the Lone Wanderer is off the window (since the gate is locked), unceremoniously giving them the middle finger.

There are so many wrong things with Fallout 3, that I'd take a while to list them all. What baffles me is that folk overlook these glaring issues, rather focusing on coming up with all sorts of theories and excuses, or simply blame it on nostalgia and unwillingness to adapt and accept change. That's just hogwash.
This right here is pretty much what I mean when I've criticized Fallout 3 for having zero logic applied to its lore and having massive gaping plotholes.
Post edited June 23, 2018 by LiquidOxygen80
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Mr.Mumbles: I like them all. ;) F1&2 inventory/trade system is beyond painful though. *commence perpetual scrolling!* Ugh.

I don't get the whole empty world complaints for F3. F1&2's maps were plenty empty too except for the set locations. Wander the wasteland with a shit-ton of random encounters. At least in F3 and later you can actual discover places and the occasional loot stashes that did not need to be tied into some sort of quest line. And then one can just bounce around places at will due to fast travel. Wandering the wastes in the originals was never all that fun. The car in F2 was definitely introduced because of that.
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LiquidOxygen80: You're comparing apples to oranges. 90s tech versus Oughties tech is not a comparable comparison at all.
Wizardry, Might & Magic, Daggerfall, Betrayal at Krondor all did this sort of open world map years before Fallout, though. Seems quite comparable to me.
I played 1+2 first (being older games so i got to them first) and loved them for what they were.

However Fallout 3 became a secret passion of mine (much after it was released) and i wrote a pretty huge indepth modding guide to it here a few years ago:

https://forum.quartertothree.com/t/fallout-3-modding-edition-2015/76793

I never got to finish the guide, but there is enough to get people started in building their own super great modded build of FO3.

In short the current version i have is easily the biggest most intense post-apocalyptic game i've played or owned.
*whispers* ...it's not. **leaves thread*
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fr33kSh0w2012: The game was an absolute DOG of a game the CTD's, the system Hangs, The lockups, the this program has caused general protection faults, the scripts the voice acting, The fact it needed patches before it was playable, The fact that the skulptura final fix that ( alas I forget how I applied it to my steam bought game FIXED IT then bethsoft came in and slapped a shoddy patch over the top of it was Rotten) pretty bad when we have to give a hacker credit for fixing the game.
People always say this about Bethesda's games but I've honestly never had a single problem with any of them. Hundreds upon hundreds of hours put into Daggerfall all the way through Fallout 4 and never had any issues. It definitely depends on the PC.
SPOILERS, good folk! Spoilers everywhere.

Fallout 3 takes too much from the originals, yet it brings little of its own to the table, story-wise.
Something about water purification, about retrieving a G.E.C.K., about antagonists being talked out of their plans, about meeting the president in their own base, about Regulators turned upside down, about a new drug (see ultrajet), about a rebel faction in the vault, about being kicked out of the vault for good, etc.

The railroading is ever so present, especially when having to switch between D.C. and the rest of the map. D.C. is riddled with rubble blocking paths, so one has to use the underground system. Not that much of a hassle actually - if you're paying attention you shouldn't have problems navigating these corridors.

What about handholding? Quest markers everywhere. With a few exceptions.
There's an overabundance of useful items: bottlecaps (inside lockers, cabinets, even feral ghouls carry them), healing items, ammo and guns, armor, skill books, etc. Too many things just placed on the ground or in containers, waiting to be picked up by the Lone Wanderer. Everything is there for the player, not for others. As I see it, in a post-apocalyptic world resources should be scarce, concentrated mainly in hubs, trade centers or populated areas. People should compete or pay dearly for them.

I won't go into details regarding the main story. Suffice to say it's just bad. The ending is one of the worst I've seen. But what about other quests? Many would agree Fallout 3 is at its best in side quests or exploration. Let's see...
An annoying woman is trying to write a survival guide 200 years after the war. So she sends the player on different missions, one worse than the other, in order to achieve her goal. Explore a minefield and learn about mines, get irradiated, beat mole rats with a stick, sneak up on some mirelurks in order to spy on them, get food and medicine from a nearby supermarket, get "horribly injured", learn about a certain settlement's past, etc. By the way, "how are those hot little potatoes?"
What about vampires then? Apparently they enjoy tormenting a few people atop an overpass. "Typical gang bullshit". Hehe.
There's a war between "super heroes" on Canterbury Common's streets. Do notice, this town is designated as HQ for all those 4 caravans. These people haven't heard about the Hub.
Trouble is afoot in Vault 101. They need your help. Help them in order to be thrown out. Forever. Hmm, seems like I've seen this before... Somewhere in California...
These "grownups" over in Big Town are having all sorts of troubles, but they won't lift a finger to fix them. The Lone Wanderer will take care of everything though. And here I am asking myself: Why do the super mutants kidnap these people? To eat them? Not likely, they're alive and kicking by the time I arrive at Germantown Police Station. To transform them? I was under the impression the mutants were looking for strong people, not for lame ones.
Here's a dialogue between two mutants:
SM1: We almost out of green stuff. Others go find some. We must have more of us to stop the humans!
SM2: Need to find more humans then...make them like us.
SM1: Stupid Fox (Fawkes) say men will come to us one day. To take green stuff.
SM2: Let them come to us! We'll take them apart! Then when they weak, we put them in green stuff.
SM1: Ha ha ha, yes! More of them mean more of us soon.
SM2: More of us if green stuff work. It makes many mistakes. We dump bodies in cave too many times.
SM1: Green stuff don't work because men we take weak. We wait for strong men.. they make good soldiers.
SM2: Ha ha ha! Yes! Strong soldiers to smash the humans for good!
They're talking about dipping people in green stuff, that is to say F.E.V. in liquid form. There's no sign of that in Vault 87. But the player is able to notice something else inside the vault: sealed chambers and failed experiments, not vats of "green stuff". Subject were transformed using the virus in its gaseous form, perhaps. Either that, or I'm missing something.
And since I brought up Vault 87, I should mention that this is where the highest level of rads/second can be observed (ranging from 2100 to 3600). Clearly it suffered a direct hit. But another nuke hit the White House and the level of rads/second there is around 6-7. Eh?
Back to the virus...
The first two games introduced two strains of F.E.V. if memory serves right: the Mariposa strain and Curling-13 (Enclave's project at the Oil Rig). Then Fallout 3 presents us with two new strains: Vault 87 and Eden's. Bethesda comes up with the so-called EEP (Evolutionary Experimentation Program). Somehow, the U.S. government orders a new experiment on the East Coast, in Vault 87. That doesn't seem all that wise now, does it? The whole apparatus was moved from West Tek to Mariposa for a good reason: continue further testing, this time on human subjects, under USAF (read the U.S. Army) supervision. Why would they haul a new strain across the country during a moment of great tension? This was a secret project after all, localized on the West Coast, meant to give them an edge in the upcoming war. But here we are, on the East Coast, with a new strain of F.E.V. which led to the creation of a new breed of super mutants. Apparently healthier than their Western counterparts, but remarkably stupid.
Anyhow...
Ghouls can run now and they all sound the same. One can encounter them either in Underworld or out in the wastes occasionally (even as far as Old Olney). Moira can become a ghoul, and quite fast, despite stating she was out of town at the time of the explosion. Willow, a ghoul guarding the entrance to the Museum of History, tells you the super mutants tolerate ghouls, yet some random ghoul wastelander says he couldn't get past the super mutants on his way to Underworld. Make up your mind, dammit!
Deathclaws are pretty common in the Capital Wasteland (remember to use a dart gun when fighting one) and not that dangerous outside Old Olney. There are also cave bears out in the open (or yao guais if you will), mutated mudcrabs, centaurs with just one head (damn that strain of F.E.V.), several types of super mutants (from the common grunts to the overlords and behemoths). For some unknown reason, these beasts use small guns now. Watching an overlord wielding an assault rifle with just one hand is quite the sight. Or the sighs.
Oh, I almost forgot about aliens. Yes, they're finally here. Well, not quite, but you get the point. What was previously used as a running joke became a reality in Fallout 3. Because why not? Is there something else better to do in this world than shooting shielded aliens?
Notice the pattern here? Surely this can't be a mix of Fallout and The Elder Scrolls.
Surely...
Wait, enchanted armor? No way. That has to be some sort of mishap. Take for instance a simple Vault 101 utility jumpsuit which adds 5 points to lockpick and repair. Need to repair all those leaking pipes in Megaton but lack the proper skill? Well, don the suit. Yet another example is Lesko's lab coat which grants +10 in science and +20 rad resistance (same level of protection as the Tesla Armor). Not only that, but this magical coat has higher rad resistance than T-51b, T-45d, and Enclave Power Armor. Hmm, this guy should be working for the Brotherhood or something. So it turns out Moira can reward the player with an Environment Suit which grants +30 rad resistance and +5 to medicine. Well, I'll be...this surpasses everything the guys with the big guns can do. For the record, the Power Armor as seen in Fallout added +30 to rad resistance. But what about a common bandana? This fine piece of apparel raises the player's perception by one point. Hmm, that could go well with some sunglasses. And let's not forget about the naughty nightwear. Speech impediments at any given moment? No longer a problem. Then there's a certain wig that adds one point to intelligence and 10 to speech. Because that's how wigs work.
What about perks such as Lawbringer/Contract Killer, Computer Whiz, Grim Reaper sprint, Explorer, Hematophage, No weaknesses/Almost Perfect, Nuclear anomaly?

Did I mention the voice acting? It's not their first time doing this, namely having few select actors voicing main NPCs. Remember Oblivion? At the end of the day it's forgettable. "But there's Liam Neeson and Malcolm McDowell". And?
Post edited June 24, 2018 by patrikc
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patrikc: As I see it, in a post-apocalyptic world resources should be scarce, concentrated mainly in hubs, trade centers or populated areas. People should compete or pay dearly for them.
This I absolutely agree with.
So we are applying that same criticism to Fallout 2, as well, right?
In my attempt to enjoy Fallout 3, my dislike of open-world games was confirmed. The worlds in such games have the depth of a puddle, and are simply too huge to concentrate neat things into a searchable area. I often complete the games I play, but I simply got bored of Fallout 4 and abandoned it.

Witcher 3 has a tall order: To convince me that "open world" isn't a dirty word.
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fr33kSh0w2012: The game was an absolute DOG of a game the CTD's, the system Hangs, The lockups, the this program has caused general protection faults, the scripts the voice acting, The fact it needed patches before it was playable, The fact that the skulptura final fix that ( alas I forget how I applied it to my steam bought game FIXED IT then bethsoft came in and slapped a shoddy patch over the top of it was Rotten) pretty bad when we have to give a hacker credit for fixing the game.
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StingingVelvet: People always say this about Bethesda's games but I've honestly never had a single problem with any of them. Hundreds upon hundreds of hours put into Daggerfall all the way through Fallout 4 and never had any issues. It definitely depends on the PC.
Well what PC do you have then?
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patrikc: As I see it, in a post-apocalyptic world resources should be scarce, concentrated mainly in hubs, trade centers or populated areas. People should compete or pay dearly for them.
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lolplatypus: This I absolutely agree with.
So we are applying that same criticism to Fallout 2, as well, right?
What do you mean by that exactly? Fallout 2 has little over 20 locations to visit, most of them actual functioning communities. See Broken Hills, Gecko, The Den, NCR, Vault City, Redding, Klamath, San Francisco, etc. Most of what's to be found, can be found in such areas. Or in highly dangerous ones, such as Mariposa or Sierra Army Depot.

Take for instance the basic leather armor, valued at 700 in the originals. In Fallout 3 it costs only 160.
Or the T-51b power armor: 12500 in both Fallout and Fallout 2, 2120 in Fallout 3.
A hunting rifle: 1000 as opposed to 150 in Fallout 3.
Or a stimpack: 175 in the first two games, 25 in Fallout 3.
Bethesda trivialized the economy as a whole. Important items cost next to nothing. Not only that, but most of the time you don't even have to purchase them. The wasteland is filled to the brim with them. As I was saying, just waiting to be picked up.
Post edited June 24, 2018 by patrikc
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fr33kSh0w2012: Well what PC do you have then?
Many different PCs over the years, obviously.
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lolplatypus: This I absolutely agree with.
So we are applying that same criticism to Fallout 2, as well, right?
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patrikc: What do you mean by that exactly? Fallout 2 has little over 20 locations to visit, most of them actual functioning communities. See Broken Hills, Gecko, The Den, NCR, Vault City, Redding, Klamath, San Francisco, etc. Most of what's to be found, can be found in such areas. Or in highly dangerous ones, such as Mariposa or Sierra Army Depot.
And there's the problem.
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember trading between communities to be a big deal and a dangerous affair in Fallout 1. It had to be done with caravans and, with the wasteland being what it is, that's a dangerous prospect. Hence the relative prosperity of The Hub.
In contrast look at The Den. There's a functioning car. Only needs a replacement part, which itself isn't in a particularly dangerous or inaccessible area, either. A car! Not only does nobody care for this piece of technology, that everyone in The Hub would have sold their mother for, but you can have it for the steep investment of two hunting rifles.
And that is actually almost peanuts compared to everything about New Reno.

Surely scarcity of ressources as a theme is well and truly shattered at that point.
As with any Betheseda game released since Arena (Daggerfall had the very important Andyfall and CompUSA mods/patches) Mods make the whole game better.

And since Oblivion their games have certainly been taking a downwards trajectory towards 'dumbsville'. However if you want a 'deeper' fps than is normal they are a great developer, and once you start modding it is possible to mostly craft games that are heads above most others.

For Fallout 3 in particular you need to start with the FWE mod:

https://sites.google.com/site/fo3wanderersedition/home

This deals nicely with the 'resource scarcity' issue (and is configurable) and in particular makes ammo availabilty a serious concern. What use is having a bunch of the most powerful game weapons if you can not find the ammo they need?

As with many complaints against Fallout 3 (and other Bethesda games like TES) you simply mod out the worst aspects to craft your perfect game. And that is Bethesda games greatest asset imho.

I have massively modded versions of Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 on my PC (some have followed me across PC builds) and i have never 'finished' any of them, there is just so much in them (from content to difficulty to some of the best crpg goodness you could want).

Mods + Bethesda crpg (from Morrowind to Fallout) = some of your best sp gaming ever :)
Post edited June 24, 2018 by ThorChild
Damn, some people here really hate this game. Like, I don't think I ever realise just how deeply some gamers hate it. Reading all this (well, ok, some of it because otherwise I'd die of old age) I imagine this must be like how people who like the Star Wars prequels feel like when I rant about those movies.
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lolplatypus: And there's the problem.
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember trading between communities to be a big deal and a dangerous affair in Fallout 1. It had to be done with caravans and, with the wasteland being what it is, that's a dangerous prospect. Hence the relative prosperity of The Hub.
In contrast look at The Den. There's a functioning car. Only needs a replacement part, which itself isn't in a particularly dangerous or inaccessible area, either. A car! Not only does nobody care for this piece of technology, that everyone in The Hub would have sold their mother for, but you can have it for the steep investment of two hunting rifles.
And that is actually almost peanuts compared to everything about New Reno.

Surely scarcity of ressources as a theme is well and truly shattered at that point.
I have to say, I'm not particularly fond of New Reno. Recover some magazines for the brothel owner? Yeah, how about no?
And about the car part, you do bring up a good point. Fact of the matter, I only bothered once with the Highwayman. To my mind, painting a car in the picture brought more complications. The Den appears to be New Reno on a smaller scale if you will: gambling, slavery, prostitution. One could say its denizens seem rather uninterested in recovering that particular piece, seeing as they're too entagled in their own misery. Yet that seems rather questionable. Smitty even says that if the car worked, he wouldn't even be in The Den anymore. Definitely a pet peeve of mine with Fallout 2, alongside parts of New Reno and San Francisco. Too many references, too much over the top. But that's just me.
Don't get me wrong, the first two games have their own issues (Fallout 2 more so), but Fallout 3 takes the biscuit by far. And why? Lack of gall. Bethesda went the safe route, pampering the player. It's a game built for a different audience, by different people, with their own ideas, understandings and beliefs. For example, Emil Pagliarulo (lead designer and writer) understands bad karma and black humor by placing's someone's head on a shelf. He starts playing as an evil guy, but then he meets Dogmeat, who teaches him how to love. But at the end of the day, they support redemption.